SIOUX vs BEAVERS

[rochsioux]

What a joke! He is by far the worst defensive defenseman.

To answer your question, there are at least three obvious reasons. First, because he is seldom on the ice when the other team's top line is on the ice. The coaches recognize that as well, so they put him out in situations where he does the least amount of harm. Second, there is often a faceoff in the defensive zone after he left the ice because he either iced the puck or could not get the puck out of the zone. Unfortunately, goals are often scored off of face-offs in the defensive zone. Finally, he is fortunate enough to be on the ice when the top players such as Duncan, Toews or Oshie scored, with very little to no contribution from him. That is why plus/minus is the most overrated statistic. If you happen to step onto the ice while a goal is being scored against, you have a minus and the converse is also true.

Rather than looking at stats, perhaps you should watch the games. I'm not going to debate you further, but I resent being called a "fool" by a person who has not demonstrated any knowledge of the game. Why don't you talk with some of the coaches in the area and ask them who the worst defensmen is for the Sioux. I'll be shocked if you hear any other name.

If line matchups were a big factor in the +/- differences between Lee and Finley I would expect to see that show up to some degree in the home/away stats. At this point Lee is -1 in road games and 0 in home games, while Finley is a +3 at home and a +7 on the road. Since the home team has last change I would expect to see a worse number for Finley on the road.

If we assume that Lee and Finley were playing equally as well (or bad) defensively, wouldn't you think that Lee would have a better +/- than Finley since he has better offensive skills ? You can belittle the +/- stats all you want, but Finley is at +10 while the next best defensemen is Genoway at +3 (not sure what it is if you take out the games he played forward).

[roper1313]

Matt Greene was one of the best defensemen to ever wear a Sioux jersey. Opposing players lived in fear of him.

Matt Greene was a great player, but come on. There have been quite a few Sioux defensemen in the last 60+ years and Matt Greene isn't on the top 10. Maybe during the past 10 years but not ever.

Is Big Joe as good as Greene. Probably not, but I'm liking what I've seen.

[airmail]

You can belittle the +/- stats all you want, but Finley is at +10 while the next best defensemen is Genoway at +3...

And Bina is at 0 with Chorney at a -3. Now tell me who you'd rather see on the ice at a critical point in the game.

[siouxnami]

And Bina is at 0 with Chorney at a -3. Now tell me who you'd rather see on the ice at a critical point in the game.

Depends, if we are up by 1, I'll take Joe.

[driscol]

Ryan Bakken's blog I think sums it up best;

Coach Dave Hakstol has always handled well the fact that his studs have left his team for 3-4 weeks over the holidays to play in the world juniors, rationalizing it by the fact that they return as better players. That has certainly been the case with Toews _ and Taylor Chorney, who was playing well before the Worlds, too. Brian Lee, who was good enough to be on the World Juniors roster three times, remains the enigma. He's played fine except for the fact that he makes the huge mistake that ends up with a red light flashing.

[rochsioux]

And Bina is at 0 with Chorney at a -3. Now tell me who you'd rather see on the ice at a critical point in the game.

Good question. Depends on the score and the type of game that is going on. Also depends on how each player is performing that night.

At this point I would prefer Finley on the ice if the Sioux are leading late in the game over Lee. I am not arguing that Finley is the best defensive player but I also do not think he is the worst or a liability. If the Sioux are trailing then I would prefer to see Chorney and Bina on the ice as we are going to need to score one or more goals.

[Supertrex]

Matt Greene was a great player, but come on. There have been quite a few Sioux defensemen in the last 60+ years and Matt Greene isn't on the top 10. Maybe during the past 10 years but not ever.

Is Big Joe as good as Greene. Probably not, but I'm liking what I've seen.

Right...you better hold off huffing the gold paint... otherwise let's hear your top ten...

[roper1313]

Right...you better hold off huffing the gold paint... otherwise let's hear your top ten...

In my opinion you need to have your picture framed and hung around The Ralph to be considered "one of the best ever". Here is a list of All-American defensemen. *signifies 2nd team

Dan Mckinnon- 1949-50*(Sioux Hall of Fame)

McKinnon is one of UND's hockey pioneers. He was a standout member of the small band of UND (All American) Sioux who propelled UND into the big-time college hockey ranks with a 6-5 victory over national champion University of Michigan at Ann Arbor. He lettered three years as a hockey player, 1947-50, and was a very good defensemen on teams coached by Don Norman and Hall of Famer Cliff (Fido) Purpur. McKinnon was named to the All America second team in 1950. He also played with three U.S. national teams: 1955 in Germany, and 1956 U.S. Olympic team in Cortina, Italy where he served as Assistant Captain, and in 1958 with the U.S. Nationals in Oslo, Norway.

John Noah- 1950-1951 (Sioux Hall of Fame)

A native of nearby Crookston, Minn., Noah was a super hockey defenseman and became the first UND hockey All American in 1951. He lettered four years in hockey. He was a member of the United States National hockey team in the world tournament in 1950 and performed very well. Noah long has been a promoter of amateur hockey and devoted countless hours to not only coaching, managing but also bankrolling amateur hockey in North Dakota.

Bill Steenson- 1956-57, 1957-58, 1959-60 (Sioux Hall of Fame)

Steenson, a native Moose Jaw, Sask., also was a super hockey defenseman. He is the only Sioux skater ever to win All America honors all three seasons, 1956-59, an honor duplicated by only a handful of collegiate stars. Steenson was rate, by veteran observers, for his size, the most able defenseman UND has ever had

Don Ross- 1962-63 and 1964-65

Jeffy Lafond- 1966-67

Terry Abram- 1967-68 (Sioux Hall of Fame)

A native of South St. Paul, Minn., Abram lettered in each of his three seasons with the UND hockey team en route to earning numerous honors. Abram was a key defenseman on the Fighting Sioux team that finished second in the nation in 1968. He earned first-team All-America honors and made the NCAA All-Tournament team that year, the one that he considered the highlight of his stay at UND. Abram went on to earn All-WCHA honors in his final two seasons and graduated in 1969 with a B.S. in Education. After graduation Abram was drafted by the Chicago Blackhawks, but declined going to training and opted instead to enter the field of education and "give something to the students."

John Marks- 1968-69 and 1969-70 (Sioux Hall of Fame)

The name Marks is synonymous with UND hockey excellence, besides a former player, Marks, served very capably as an assistant hockey coach. He came to UND from Winnipeg, Manitoba, where he established himself as a premiere student-athlete. Marks lettered as an outstanding defenseman 1967-70 and his last two years was named to both the All American first teams and to the All Western Collegiate Hockey Association teams. After finishing college he played 12 years of pro hockey, including 10 years with the Chicago Black Hawks of the NHL and his first two years with the Black Hawks farm team in Dallas, Texas. He is considered one of UND's all-time great defensemen, playing on UND teams that won 71 of 116 games.

Alan Hansleben- 1971-72

Howard Walker- 1979-80

Mark Chorney- 1980-81 (Sioux Hall of Fame)

A 1981 All-American, Chorney, a native of Thunder Bay, Ontario, was an assistant captain for the 1980 national championship squad and served as captain for the 1981 team. He was named to the 1980 all-NCAA Tournament team and earned all-Western Collegiate Hockey Association honors for the 1980 and 1981 seasons. Chorney appeared in 153 games and recorded 24 goals and 94 assists as a defenseman. He played professionally with the Pittsburgh Penguins and the Los Angeles Kings

James Patrick- 1982-83 (don't know if he's been named yet, but a sure fire Sioux Hall of Famer)

Scott Sandelin- 1985-86*

Ian Kidd- 1986-87

Russ Parent- 1989-90

Curtis Murphy- 1996-97* and 1997-98

Brad Williamson- 1998-99

Travis Roche- 2000-2001

Thats 17 All-American's making 19 1st teams and 3 2nd teams.

I'll throw out another

Calvin C. Marvin (Sioux Hall of Fame)

Marvin is a native of Warroad, Minn., and was instrumental in persuading UND athletic administrators to begin playing major college hockey after World War II. He lettered three times as a great hockey defenseman 1947-50. Marvin was a member of the 14-man (All Americans) UND team that went to University of Michigan and beat the national championship team, 6-5, to mark UND entry into the big-time ranks. The same team also stopped Colorado College's 17-game winning streak.

Not a top ten but a pretty good list of guys that stand ahead of Matt Greene. Don't get me wrong, Matt was a great stay at home d-man, but he doesn't deserve to be listed in that group.

Now I'll apolagize for bringing facts to the table when I should have resorted to name calling an personal attacks. I'll now go back to my closed garage and find some more paint.