johnson
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Posts posted by johnson
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So since you are such a financial and athletic department insider, show me financially how NDSU wins by having a sixth game.
As I wrote, NDSU only wins by scheduling someone that requires less than a $50,000 guarantee. Hence USD.
BTW, when UND last played NDSU, the tickets were more than $20 higher than normal games. That's $200,000 more in UND's pocket. Refute those numbers as speculation? You can't.
Sorry, but you are just going to have to accept the fact that you've been deceived by your very own. It's all about trying bison athletics attempting to maintain a very laughable perception that NDSU football >> UND football.
I guess it's all just a conspiracy for you then.
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Incredibly, you're still aren't comprehending the costs and embracing the fallacy that a sixth game buys more than a home and home series with UND.
This is what a UND game every other year will buy NDSU:
With 19,000 seats
The revenue from 4,000 seats for students doesn't change. (0 revenue)
10,000 season tickets for non-UND years
12,000 season tickets for UND years
3000 tickets for general admission for UND years
5000 tickets for general admission for non-UND years
+$60 for increase for season tickets for UND years x 10,000 = $600,000
even if the increase price for season tickets is only $40 = $400,000
+ $20/seat for general admission x 3000 = $60,000
+ 2000 more season tickets sold = possibly $400,000 more in advance sales, of which maybe $100,000 to $200,000 would never be sold otherwise without a playoff caliber season
+ Teammakers would get higher level memberships for enhanced seating an more tickets
Potential direct benefit = $500-750 k every other year
Potential indirect benefit = $3-500 k every other year
A sixth game buys what for NDSU?
Without an increase in season ticket price, a sixth game does not measurably increase season ticket sales, unless the Wagner-type team directly helps selling more season tickets
5000 tickets x $20 ticket = $100,000
- $100,000 for guarantee
= zero financial benefit for NDSU for a no-name sixth home game opponent
So why did Gene Taylor schedule USD? Because it was a 3-game contract (home and home optional), and USD only required $50,000 for the extra game, USD can bus to Fargo, and USD is hoping that for a sell-out home game in the DakotaDome a couple years hence.
So why doesn't Gene Taylor schedule UND in football? IMHO, because the UND every other home year would benefit UND to the tune of $3-400 k directly every other year (UND would sell vastly more season tickets at higher prices during NDSU years). NDSU boosters do not want to boost UND's football program financially.
What you are not comprehending is that all of your numbers are nothing but speculation. What causes you to believe that UND holds that much value that all prices can be raised just because UND is on the schedule again? You are not part of the administration and you are not involved in anything with the athletic department. You can throw all the numbers you want out and make it sound like it is nothing but a win-win. The rivalry was big and continues to be off the field of play but just because you are UND doesn't make you the greatest thing that can happen to NDSU. If the program starts winning games again the seats will be filled and prices will continue to increase annually. I've noticed that the price of season tickets at the Alerus have dropped in price for two seasons in a row now to the point where I can pick one up for $40.00. UND needs help filling the Alerus and NDSU has been bringing in decent numbers. It's not really smart to come to the negotiating table needing help and start making demands.
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You still get unhappy fans, which leads to lower attendance, even if you are successful when playing a bunch of tomato cans. That's why always having a schedule of 8 conference games, 1 FBS game on the road and 2 non-conference games at home will not work long term. The only FCS schools that will agree to a single road game without a return game at their stadium are the weakest teams. They do it for the money (like the better FCS taking on FBS schools). If charters are running $80,000 they will want at least $100,000 to make the trip. So to get a 6 game home schedule every year you have to pay at least $100,000 for each of the non-conference games and you will still end up angering your supporters because of the weak schedule. It isn't a viable scheduling practice for the long term. It worked for Montana for a while because they needed the money to pay off debt and it was a new idea, no one else in FCS had tried it yet. But as I stated earlier, they don't even follow that practice now.
I am not defending it as a great practice and who knows how long he is thinking he needs six home games. I am just defending that he is in fact trying to schedule six home games in the near future. There have been a few problems to get teams to commit to their side of the home/home but have now finally been scheduled. I do know that NDSU needs some facility upgrades soon so having a sixth home game to make more money isn't such a far fetched story right now to me. None of us have solid numbers on anything. We are all just speculating at what things could possibly cost and how much could possibly be made. I don't think anyone at NDSU is intentionally keeping UND off the schedule now at this point. Was the USD deal presented to UND first? I heard that it was but I can't say I know it was for a fact. We have Baseball and Basketball on the schedule and Volleyball is not far behind. It is slowly starting to become a reality again. To me Gene is saying we'll play but we're not giving you what exactly what you want if we don't feel it works for us. NDSU has established their long term goals and if UND doesn't agree to how NDSU thinks they fit into achieving those goals then they will go elsewhere. If UND can make it into the MVFC then all things will be back to normal. I know Youngstown has applied to an FBS conference the past couple of years and if Indiana State can't get things together soon I wouldn't be shocked if their football program disappears like Northeastern or moves on to something that is a better fit for them. Teams move around and I think until UND can get into the MVFC you aren't going to be happy with what NDSU is going to be willing to offer.
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Or the playoff games that UND had with Winona St.. NDSU fans like to make fun of the last few years of attendance for those games but honestly after years of easy victories against teams like that fans can't be blamed for not showing up.
Also, in regards to Johnson and his schedule a game and fans will come, these pics from one of your own fans don't exactly paint the same picture you are trying to paint. This is one side of the dome and I know the other side, with the students didn't look a whole lot better. Even from the start of the year there are an aweful lot of fans wearing blue to the fargodome.
Product of a poor 2008 season and what turned out to be a horrible 2009 season. I keep stating that if they don't produce this year it will all vanish. They still managed an average of 16,500 for the season which ranked 9th in all of FCS. The one side of the stadium you are looking at probably has more people sitting there than the total at some of UND's games last year.
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...and you'll either pay a $100,000 guarantee for a one-game contract with a team from nowhere (while generating perhaps 5,000 additional paid customers) or you'll spend nearly as much in travel fulfilling your half of a home and home. Honestly, is this a difficult concept to grasp?
You are over estimating the amount guaranteed for a team like Austin Peay. You would be looking at more in the range of 50k-65k. NDSU can bring in a lower tier FCS school and still sell tickets. I have stated that it all could vanish if NDSU doesn't start to produce. If another season like last year happens again this year all of the interest that has been gained could be lost. If that happens then yes NDSU would need UND to help fill the stands but that hasn't been the case for a few years now.
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I guess you've got that right. But, hey, if you're satisfied with Taylor's current 25% success rate (20% when a sixth home game fails to materialize for '10) then good for you. And kudos to Gene for his ability to hook a few live ones in Fargo. Buy outs, programs folding or schools othewise refusing a return game (don't think Montana State was ever on your schedule) have had nothing to do with failure to schedule a sixth home game for NDSU. It's damn tough to find quality opponents for a single road game, and when you do, the pay out for a subpar team squashes your home payday.
With the skyrocketing cost of travel, its ridiculous that the Dakota schools do not play each other on a regular basis, especially now that everyone's back in the same division. If you're anxious to continue trying to bring in subpar teams for a big pay-out then good luck to you. But don't try to sell this as a move that makes the most money for NDSU.
He may be crazy, but Lakes Bison has it right; the goal from the beginning was to try to establish the AC as THE football school in North Dakota. Avoiding, delaying and, if necessary, limiting games with UND is part of Taylor's strategy. Little or nothing to do with economics. Oh, and PM me when NDSU is a big draw in the Big Ten.
I don't think he is going out of his way to jump back into putting UND on the schedule. Like I said before, if they can start producing again the tickets will sell regardless.
Fargo Forum:
“We’re excited to get the return game worked out with Montana State” said Taylor.
The game with the Bobcats is the return date for NDSU’s 2005 road game.
Montana State won 20-17 in Bozeman. The Bison and MSU are scheduled to
play Sept. 7, 2013.
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The concept is still going way over your head.
A home game against UND is worth much more than a "normal" home game because higher prices can be charged. To bring in a one-game only opponent, paying them $100 k+, every year has a much smaller benefit than a home game against UND every other year.
It's net that matters, not tickets sold.
Higher prices will be charged to cover the money lost when going to UND the following year.
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Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but are you saying that Taylor thinks NDSU can play an FBS game, AND two home non-conference games every year? Wouldn't that mean NDSU wouldn't play any non-conference FCS games on the road, other than in 12-game seasons?
I don't think that six home games will be achievable every year. Things can go wrong with the schedule like Northeastern suddenly dropping football or Idaho State buying out of a contract. But when Austin Peay and Central Connecticut State were sell-outs it was very obvious that they can bring in a lower tier FCS school every season and not affect ticket sales. They can stay at home and make a very nice profit. UND became less valuable as games started to sell out and then to top it all off SDSU showed up and broke the attendance record. UND could bring in guaranteed large numbers no doubt but it appears that if NDSU does well the tickets will be sold without UND. Now if NDSU continues to slide that could all vanish in a hurry.
It looks like Gene is hoping to bring a product to regional FBS schools that will be competitive enough to bring fans to the stadium. He hasn't been hopscotching all over the US trying to bring in the biggest guarantee he can find. It appears that he is scheduling FBS schools that are relatively close to Fargo. It not only helps regional recruiting but it increases the potential for more games in the future. If NDSU could find themselves continually scheduling the likes of Minnesota, Iowa State, Kansas, etc. every year their fans could become more familiar with NDSU and buy more tickets if they can be competitive enough when they show up. Increased ticket sales could lead to increased guarantees making the sixth home game nothing but a bonus for season ticket holders and not so much a money issue.
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That may all be true, but NDSU is selling season tickets at the same price for a five vs six home game season. A six game season makes more sense if there is a higher price for it.
If UND played at the FargoDome, NDSU could likely sell single game tickets for $50, season tickets for $200, and have record season ticket sales. Financially, it makes sense for NDSU to play UND every other year, even if it means sacrificing a six-game home season because a UND game would have much more profitable than any game NDSU has yet to host at the DI level - with the possible exception of when they host Montana (in like six or seven years).
The discussion for the UND game has been to sell that one game at double the normal single game ticket price. The single game tickets have been increasing by about $5 a year for the past few years and I wouldn't be surprised if that continues if the team can start producing again. I don't think NDSU could go out and ask those kind of prices that quickly for all games. Season Ticket prices have been gradually increasing every year too. You risk the chance of losing season ticket holders because of raising prices too quickly so I believe there won't be a drastic increase in price if UND does come to Fargo.
With season ticket sales nearing 10,000 and 4,000 being reserved for students it doesn't leave much room for others. Local watering holes would definately appreaciate the game again that is for sure. I think this will all eventually work itself out but it is going to take some major negotiating to get all sides to agree to play again.
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I don't think Montana State ever bought out...just had to postpone quite a while. They'll be in Fargo 2013.
I remember Gene saying that he has increased the buy out amounts on the contracts after Montana State payed the sum which was way too low. $25,000 is sticking in my head for some reason.
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Again, when does NDSU get six home games? Just once in the last five years, and then with Central Conneticut and Austin Peay. Don't think that argument holds much water. I've never checked the math, but I've also never understood the argument that NDSU would be better off with six home games (again, assuming you could get them) than regular home-and-home v UND. Assuming you get an OOC opponent that can draw 18,000 and assuming the average ticket (factoring in students) is what, $10, that grosses 180,000. You pay out $100,000 to the visitors and net $80,000. Playing home and home, you get the entire gross -- and a guaranteed great crowd -- and when you travel you pay for busfare. Doesn't seem like rocket science.
The home games started to sell out consistantly later in the transition and NDSU already had Home/Home contracts with SHSU and Georgia Southern. Gene stated later in the transition that they could now make more money bringing in a 6th game rather than travelling to another FCS school. Georgia Southern was supposed to come to Fargo a couple of years ago but pushed the original date back further and NDSU traveled to SHSU last year to honor that home/home. Montana State bought out of their contract with NDSU recently which left Gene scrambling for another game. I believe GS is finally coming in 2011 and Montana State in 2013. Gene has changed the way he schedules since.
Single game reserved tickets were going for $25 a piece and $15 for general admission last year. On top of that season ticket sales are over 9,400 right now. Those prices range from $100 a piece behind the endzones to $130 a piece on the sidelines with Team Maker donations required between the 10's that range from $75 to $500. Factor in merchandise sales and concessions sales and that amount adds up quick. I have a friend who teaches at a high school in my area and has taken over concessions for games. They can make up to $1,000 in sales an hour when they are busy and that is just two windows serving customers for a HS game.
Gene only has to find 2 more games to have complete schedules for 2010 and 2011 that includes 6 home games. He isn't going to change how his is doing things now just to schedule UND again.
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I was completely in the boat of doing the 6 home game thing with an FBS away game and 2 guarantee games vs. weak opponents.
Then I realized that our guys can get just as hurt playing weak teams on that Fargodome turf as they can playing good teams. Couple that with SDSU's success last year and their annual, brutal schedules, and I'm re-thinking my position.
Now I think I'm in the boat where I would still like to see the FBS away game every year (vs a regional Big Ten or Big XII team), but then I think NDSU should have 5 home games with two, alternating home/homes vs. quality FCS teams.
But then again, as long as NDSU is doing fairly well, any home game should draw at least 18k. That may be too good of money to pass up.
Taylor has explained this already. The amount of money NDSU is making for home games is the reason why he wants 6 home games. He has stated that they would have to schedule two FBS schools a year to make up for the amount that would be lost if they went on the road instead of having a home game. Now if NDSU continues to struggle and ticket sales slump then that argument would be irrelevant.
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There is no need to wait until UND is playoff eligible, that's irrelevant. Just ask Montana about the 2010 season.
One argument against scheduling the game every year is that NDSU wants to have 6 home games and traveling to both an FBS away game and to Grand Forks in the same season prevents that.
So then why play at South Dakota in 2013? Perhaps there will be no FBS away game that season.
2013 is a 12 game season. NDSU can still have a FBS away game, travel to USD and have 6 home games.
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Is it possible he was the victim of some sort of Abscam-esque ruse whereby unscrupulous UND fans, posing as DeBoer associates, fed him mis-information?
I think when he hears information he twists it in his head into what he wants and thinks should happen and then reports it as if it is fact.
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I would also like to add that Lakes was reporting his "inside" info to BV that the Sioux Falls coaches were going to be announced as the newest additions to NDSU staff the week after USF won the NAIA championship. I believe he was saying a press conference was going to be held on 12/21/09. I am still waiting for that press conference.
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Nope. DeBoer was going to NDSU to be Offensive Coordinator, and the USF DC was to come along to be Defensive Coordinator, with Bohl helping more on the defensive side of the ball.
That was the Lakes rumor. The first talk that I was a part of was that he was intially talked to about taking over the defense and he didn't want anything to do with it. Then the offensive talk started coming out. When both sides decided it wasn't going to work out the DC for Sioux Falls name was being tossed around for the DC job at NDSU. I'm not sure if Lakes was just speculating or had solid info. I guess there were alot of rumors out there and who knows what is factual. I do know for a fact that Bohl and Vigen said no to DeBoer calling the offensive plays.
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Wasn't there a rumor that Bohl was trying to get DeBoer on his staff? So DeBoer chooses Lennon instead?
The rumor at NDSU was that they were talking to him for the DC job. Sounds like he didn't want anything to do with it. Then some info came out that he was wanting to be on the offensive side of the ball and wanted to call the plays and Bohl said no. That was the last time that he was mentioned.
NDSU - UND game 2010
in Football
Posted
I tell you what, call up NDSU and find out how much they make per game. Then we can all feel better about all of this. Get into the MVFC and both sides will finally be happy. If better decisions would have been made nearly a decade ago now this all wouldn't have been an issue today.