undsportsfan

I can say that in my Personal opinion. that NCAA has made it worse yes, by their statement of calling the nickname and logo hostile and abusive, but I do believe it promotes and opens the door wide open to hostility and cultural abuse. I know a guy that had asked me my feelings about the nickname recently, after knowing him for a couple of years... Now when I see him, he shouts, "Go Sioux." and looks me directly in the eye as he says it. Hoping to prompt an argument. Needless to say we don't see each other often. But that's sad again, people are torn apart, this community is torn apart. Because this aquaintance and I disagree on one issue, he decides he's going to harass me or attempt to irritate me any chance he gets. Also, I am not a member of Spirit Lake. I didn't even know that the Spirit Lake had a website. You'll have to check with someone that is an involved member... but that's interesting... probably stems from the name given to their tribe/nation by the government? Many nations call themselves differently than what name they are given. Not too sure. Names will be debateable I suppose because every tribe/nation has it's own word. If I say Anishinabae, most people would be unfamiliar... but if I say Ojibway or Chippewa, they'd say, "ohhh." Which usually is the case.

I'll say it again, and again... Unfortunately the debate brings out a lot of bad on all sides when a person is really passionate about it. Every person confronts the situation differently, and I'm sure there's never a right way. However people can still approach the situation with maturity, without name calling or harassing people personally. It's all a very unfortunate situation, but if perhaps we displayed more sensitivity to the issue and to those who oppose it and defend it, a more civil way of coming up with a decision on the matter can happen. Many people get completely tired of the situation, regardless of how they feel, and wish it would be over with so that they don't have to have it doesn't have to be thrown in their face on occassion. I'm not here to change anyone's minds or anything like that. But I'm trying to be devils advocate I suppose. I know what its like to be a UND student just trying to get educated but many people get so caught up in this debate that even the professors stop doing what they are supposed be doing, and focus on the 'issue' in its class, as one woman phrased it to me after a racist comment was made towards native americans and myself. And now I know that it goes further, that people within the community get harassed about their feelings on the nickname, whether for or against. Particular members have shown that they spend much time trying to find out personal information on those who are against the nickname and harass them. I know the majority of UND sports fans don't intend any harm or racism, but it just happens. UND definitely attempts to make people aware of their negative behaviors, etc, I think thats great. But if we can't control opposing teams and those loud lewd people at games, sports bars etc, that's where you start getting that offensive behavior. And many people just want it to stop being towards Native Americans. I am a sports fan, I sit in those same crowds as you do, I know what is said, I know what is done. And it's just uncalled for. How can you say someone 'Sioux' shouldn't take it personally if they hear comments in the crowds or read in forums such as in this website? Because as I have been taught as a child, and continue to hear to this day that there is nothing more important than one's sense of identity and self-worth. And I'm tired of seeing all this culturally abusive behavior. I apologize for not responding to everyone's questions. I have recieved lots of comments, etc. But I can't get to all of them, and I can't read everything I'm asked or told to. And I don't try to punch below the belt no matter how hard someone attempts to punch me.

you'd definitely shouldn't be one not allowed here then. i've never said anything but i cannot believe how offensive you are! to everyone and anyone... not to just races, but to all humans. no respect or decency.

okay, now people argue that the nickname just opens the door wide open to racism... and comments like this can easily be stated that they've been caused by the nickname debate... how can you all say you're being respectful towards native americans? what a bunch of b/s.

Ok... thanks people. I was agreeing that the instructor was wrong if it is true that they did actually give extra credit for protesting. but then I had stated unless it was a class directed towards something that falls into that category. i didn't like an instructor ignoring me in gamble hall until i said that i supported the nickname... then i got 'fair' treatment. so again, i was agreeing it was wrong for an instructor to behave that way. take a deep breath people. sheesh.

that is a bit extreme i guess. depending on the course perhaps? i'd have to find out more on what he's talking about, but for now it's hearsay, something we've all been guilty of, including myself. it's unfortunate how the nickname affects students? isn't it? sort of one of the reasons why i would like to see it gone. damned if you do like it and damned if you don't like it sort of idea...

You said it. Glad you've managed to move on with life.

I meant to say that I have not read anything as a response from Gary to the person who made the original comment on the 3 students and Wayne Stenehjam. Maybe its been done in private, but there's not this big discussion on Mr. Lapointe's personal myspace page on the ordeal. Just let LaPointe be. He's trying to take care of his family now.

Thank you as well for saying that. I do have to say this, the nickname is hurtful, athletes or not... it causes hurt. Last night I had a moment to discuss with a good friend of mine why I have changed my position... and he left with a little more knowledge about why so many people are against it. I wasn't out to change his mind, I just wanted him to listen after he asked a question about the nickname debate. Most of the time when people ask a question regarding the nickname, I don't think it's to really seek an answer, but to find something else to feed their arguments.

there have been photos taken of students dressing like this on UND campus... and back in 1999-2000 i remember a big deal about some fraternity guys doing it.

I'm not trying to play stupid... but who are these 5 people? ...that's a real question... as far as myspace goes... how can you 'fall' upon a person's website on there? there's far too many people on myspace so you had to be looking for them. and Mr. Lapointe hasn't been talking about this nickname debate, he's busy taking care of his family... I have not read any responses on his page about the nickname. But then again, maybe he's doing it in private, but it's not publicly posted on his comments, or my comments, or any one elses i know. yes there are some who are against the nickname that are racist. I don't agree with them. But there are plenty of others that are not racist and are against the nickname. and i can't believe we're resorting to Mel Gibson and 'Kramer'...

I had to laugh at the image that popped up in my head. Can you imagine the media frenzy if that were to happen?

http://www.grandforksherald.com/articles/index.cfm?id=18694

This is probably one of many arguements that made me decide its time to just retire the nickname. Seriously, I would never like to see something like the Fighting Caucasions, Fighting Whites, Fighting Germans, Fighting Catholics, etc... I guess that's why I just don't like seeing any type of human being used as a nickname/mascot for sports. Again, I know the mentality and words we use at sporting events, being a former athlete, and now a fan... I know what we say and do. Someone recently wanted to argue Vikings... I'm not too educated in the department of Vikings, it wasn't my ancestry, but isn't that more of an occupation than an actual race? None the less I don't agree with it [Humans as sports Mascots/nicknames]. Also, a few years ago, an intramural team at UND tried naming themselves the Fighting Caucasions, and were told they weren't allowed to use that. The team said, well they are caucasions, why can't they use it? (I knew the fraternity brothers that were all involved) They said it would instigate too much controversy and unneccessary trouble. So does the Fighting Sioux nickname. But it brings in money I suppose, so they keep it. I remember several years ago, an artist came to UND, setting up his display at the Memorial Union, with the Atlanta Brave mascot and changed the description to fit names like the Fighting Catholics, Fighting Germans, etc... I remember sitting there in the lobby as people left in disgust and offended. So how is that different than the use of Native Americans? And I don't think the Dakota people would like to hear that they are now generic. Or their name is. I can understand what you are getting at... but maybe that is more of a reason why people are just tired of this. The descriptive word Generic seems to fall into that dehumanizing category... This whole arguement is so tiring. And again, it will never cease to exist until the name is retired.

Isn't the UNDIA vice president a Sioux? I thought I read that somewhere. I do know many who are anti nickname for UND are against all native american nickname/mascots for sports.

I can't speak for everyone but those I know did not hail or see it as a victory. I felt bad for the group and what happened. And again, there's more to the story than you all know. That I am for certain. He did what he felt was best for him and he did what was best for the group. There are plenty of non native people who do not support the nickname... and I don't know all that was stated by GrahamKracker... from what I gather that person was an extremist. I wonder is we should say this is another publicity stunt with the nickname like was claimed about Mr. LaPointe? I also see that there's a link between the two people. Or have heard there is... All heresay though!

I had not once said that Bennet Brien is horrified at the use of the art. But in the perspective as an artist in general, when I had heard of the art contest, which I have entered plenty of, I would have never imagined that my image would be at the bottoms of dog dishes, floor mats, etc. That is my opinion. Not Bennet Brien's. I am not here to represent Mr. Brien, so do not think those are his words or opinion at all. His intentions were well intended. But the bridging of the gap didn't happen. It just stirred them back up. I'm trying to discuss the use of Sports Nicknames and American Indians. Not trying to discuss casinos. Not trying to discuss life on reservations. Not trying to discuss scholarships or grants. The nickname perpetuates negative stereotypes about American Indian people and has a negative impact on us. the nickname just doesnt belong in sports arenas. I'd like to be able to attend games without that feelling of awkwardness just as many other Native sports fans. And I don't want to see my children go through it either or debating/questioning their ethnicity over a nickname. Just as I've seen over the decade i've been here in Grand Forks. And I feel that until the name is retired respectfully, we will continue to see this within the community.

Ok, far too many replies and questions for one person to answer. And I don't have all the answers, Or I'm just not good with words too. One, I was insulted by being generalized. Fightingbooya and I discussed and apologies made and accepted. That is between the two of us. And it's 'settled'. We keep steering away from the issue on the nickname too. The logo by Bennet Brien. Beautiful. I can't argue with that. The image is not used respectively. I can't imagine an artist would have thought their image that they considered art to be used on door mats, dog dish bottoms, napkins, floors, etc. And exactly my point. I'm a sports fan. I get up and excited and agressive... I know what we say about the opposing teams. No matter at what level the team is at. And for that reason, I think the nickname should be gone. I don't like hearing anything towards Sioux, or any native for that reason, as I'm sitting there in the stands. I'd like to simply enjoy a game. Mr. Fool Bear, well, yes, like I'm one person, he's one person too. He has been told stories of racism. Before when I supported the nickname I witnessed lots of racism and was a victim of it too. During class, after, before... even during work. Did I make a big deal? No. I didn't want to. I felt alone or it wouldn't be a big deal as it should have been. I have been reading lots about debates of nicknames. I'll post some links. I will give it to you to read though, I don't agree with everything, but I agree with a lot. It's not just the Fighting Sioux nickname, there's others I don't like. I wasn't raised to feel like a victim of racism, etc... never heard a complaint in my family that started or ended with 'because I'm native.' but at the age of 5, watching baseball... seeing the tomahawk chop, I knew that was wrong. I didn't like being mocked. http://www.bluecorncomics.com/mascots.htm http://www.iwchildren.org/barb.htm http://groups.google.com/group/alt.politic...43c58dc21be6946 http://www.aics.org/mascot/cornel.html http://www.indiancountry.com/content.cfm?id=1096411618 http://www.racismagainstindians.org/UnderstandingMascots.htm http://www.inwhosehonor.com/ http://www.UND.edu/org/bridges/psych.html http://www.aistm.org/cornel.countering.htm http://www.blackathlete.net/artman/publish...icle_0880.shtml http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/041406H.shtml it's a lot to read... but it's all interesting.

I believe some people just multi task. They work on more than just the nickname but other injustices too. And why are we talking about BQ (blood quantum)? BQ is a ridiculous and a totally different debate. Necessary but unnecessary. Also every tribe is different. Your former fiance's father can only speak for his own tribe and not all. Poverty, education, alcoholism, etc... those are problems everywhere. Not just on reservations. I still am wondering where this free college and monthly checks are coming from. My mailbox is empty, and pocket book is too. And what's broken is that attitude. I do agree some people play that racism card far too much sometimes. But racism does happen. Just not as often as some people want to claim it is. *my apologies, for this post. I was/am very insulted*

The nickname is dehumanizing. Plain and simple. From what I have been told by many military too, but it definitely can be wrong, but they use similar tactics in warfare. They dehumanize a group with nicknames so it's easier to attack them. As for the story about the resignation. There's DEFINITELY more to this story than led on. There's a lot of hurt by some of the behavior by certain people within the community. I think that with the resignation, that the UNDIA can concentrate now on their agenda, which does not have anything to do with the nickname.

Today, UND and the NCAA were in court, and as usual, this issue continues to get in the way of our students' rights to an educational environment free of intimidation and the stress that goes with being American Indian at UND.

I'm not here to argue about your father. But he definitely told you wrong about a few things. And I'm sure he didn't know he's wrong either. It happens. People make assumptions and we don't try to get facts. Personally, I did not recieve free schooling. And plenty of people I know did not recieve free schooling either. And if UND did promise free schooling to us, then I want them to pay my debt off. As for scholarships, those weren't necessarily from UND, but private donors. Yes, there are grants and scholarships earmarked for Native Students but that's not free. Even if someone's tuition is paid, there are still plenty of costs. UND does not carry on the tradition of Native American Nations. The Native American Nations do that. If the nickname is lost, doesn't mean the people are lost. That's a very empty threat saying we'd be lost without the nickname and that things would be taken away. Grants and most scholarships have nothing to do with UND's nickname. I also wasn't waiting on pins and needles for a response, but thanks for responding. I just don't agree with it. Just like I'm not agreed with. and if we want to get historically accurate. From what I understand the Ojibwe people were dominating the local areas. I've been taught orally and in books that the Ojibwe actually took over plenty of lands of the Lakota/Nakota and Dakota and that's why they are in the current locations today, and not Minnesota, as they originally were from. but anyway... everyone's minds are made up here. I didn't come here to change minds, or even have mind changed... I just wanted to see some people act in a more mature manner in earlier threads. And maybe teach people a little. I don't know.

i am just responding to several posts at once. I noticed you just stated that somethings are not worth fighting over, for me the nickname triggers offensive behavior. intentional or not. and it should be corrected. i even went as far as talking to some of those who are more involved with the university and when I mentioned perhaps since we use the nickname, to have requirements that all students must take Indian Studies courses. I was laughed at. But I don't want to get into that. I really didn't want to get into any of this but reading comments here and on all the boards that were suggested, I couldn't help but post that lengthy but very summarized thread above. i do contribute to many things outside of native american based programs, etc, but i do feel drawn to help the people who've helped me and that i care for on a more personal level. Wouldn't you want to contribute to your family? Because that's who the people are from the band I belong to, my family. Blood or not. They are my family. And I will try to protect them the best that I can. I never said Sioux-cia is a liar. I just said I don't know if I am certain that it was Mr. LaPointe. But I never said he didn't do it either. Also, I didn't say anyone who is pro-nickname is immature. I said I wanted to see more maturity from some people. Such as the guy who basically said, 'my dad said this, therefore he is correct.' Claiming to have made a research paper. I have many friends and family that are pro-nickname. I don't call them immature for that reason. (though some are immature for other reasons *smiles*) A person's opinion on this particular matter is not going to deter me from maintaining a friendship with them unless they act in a way that I can no longer associate with them. I have said it before, I can understand the loyalty to the name as a sports fan I suppose. But once again, it was stated that somethings are not worth fighting for. So let it go. Embrace a name that isn't so offensive to a person's race and culture. anyway i really am tired of this. I wish this would all end. But it won't rest until the nickname is changed unfortunately, regardless of how I feel, even if I choose to support it once again, the issue will remain. best wishes to all of you

So now we're moving onto not liking me? Well, I guess, I wasn't liked from the beginninng just because I wanted to see more maturity out of some of the posters on here. I'm not an active protester. If I was, I guess I would have known about a protest that apparently happened this weekend, that you must be referring to? I just simply support a name change. I would like to see one that has nothing to do with people. I don't agree with any human being to be used as a mascot. I was involved in sports and know what comes out of our mouths during a game. I'm not politically correct but I try to be polite, even when people are cruel to me. But at the same time, I'll stand up for what I believe in. Whether its something I chose to believe in 10 minutes ago, or something 10 years ago. Then I've been challenged about why haven't I been responding. Because I have a life outside of this message board and don't read it daily. I'm sorry I'm not living up to your expectations for a debate. Even if I were, there's been far too many messages/posts up here that I'd want to respond to. And I don't want to constantly argue if I know a person doesn't want to really hear what a person has to say, they'd rather rip that person or that person's statement to shreds. I didn't come here just to argue. I've been reading these boards for the past year on occassion to try to keep up on UND sports, since I don't have time to watch every game and I don't memorize everything to do with sports. I have a life outside of this sports hobby of mine. But I when I did read posts about Mr. LaPointe, I was quick to join yes. I didn't know anything of his apparent hacking. Which I don't know if I believe, but I don't disbelieve either. But I guess I'm dim if I say innocent until proven guilty. And from what I've gathered that it hasn't been proven yet. And I do not understand why everytime this nickname is brought up that Native Americans are ridiculed. Especially about so called free rides or their upbringing. I don't know any Native Americans that have a free ride as many state it. Yes there are plenty of scholarships for Native Americans. Same goes for African Americans. Same goes for Catholic Daughters of America, or whatever it is called. Same goes for children of the American Legion, etc. The list goes on. Scholarships are given to particular groups yes. As for Native Americans, we do strive to do better in todays society. There are many Native Americans that are successful but it is still unbalanced yes, and most live in a povern state. Many of us work towards making things better for our people. I left my home several years ago because I knew that I had a better chance for a life off reservation. Someday I'd like to return and make improvements as well. But I'm out here learning so that I can help educate others. Yes reservations are generally poor. Many reservations have perhaps a gas station, public utilities, a grocery store, a church, a school and a clinic, if that. But many people try to bring more to the reservations such as chains, whether its a car dealership, a clothing store, etc but many chains won't come to reservations, or put so many stipulations that its almost impossible. And I know this because I've tried. So of course we can't grow economically to support each other unless we move off reservation. And not all reservations resort to opening Casinos to support their people. And even if they open a casino, it doesn't mean it is successful. There are very few casinos where they have so much profit that they can give each member a check monthly. And many reservations don't live where there is a great traffic flow to get people to come to their casinos. Stating that in the past 40 years the government has tried to make things right for Native Americans is a laugh. Unless you've lived on a reservation for 40 years, you'd know that's inaccurate. Yes they are improving something yes. But taking away a lot too. On one reservation, their population is 14,000+ and they have maybe 2 permanent doctors to care for that many people. I have been told that they are also attempting to close the food pantry on that particular reservation. This reservation has 50% or more poverty and yet they're trying to get rid of basic commodities? That doesn't sound like improvement. On that note, In my generation many of us are the first to graduate from high school, let alone attend college. Luckily in my family, we are third generation to graduate from high school and even college. But not many families are so fortunate nor successful. What is unfortunate that through the education my cultural traditions were not handed down to me through my family because they were taken away 2 generations ago when my grandparents and parents were at boarding schools, where they were not allowed to practice those traditions nor speak their native tongue. Luckily my father didn't attend boarding school, so through him I've learned a little bit of my family's background. It was Great Aunts and Uncles that weren't fortunate to recieve even a lower education that have taught me about my family and who I am. They weren't racist or refer to off reservation as 'white man' land or anything like that, as suggested on some threads. And going back to education, I remember one of the most intelligent girls in my class was taken out of school her senior by her mother so that she can go to Job-Core (I'm not sure what exactly its called) so that she can get a job faster to support her siblings. I had not seen her in years, but I was graced by her presence when visiting home. She said that despite any assistance her family recieved it wasn't enough to pay bills such as heat, or put clothes on her siblings. She's doing better now, but her siblings are first to graduate from her family. So yes many of us do try to educate ourselves. And why attend UND? Well many of us who've attended UND never thought it would be such an issue. My own father warned me about the nickname, but it wasn't something he or I thought would be so bothersome. And at the time we supported the nickname. And if you're trying to survive or make life better, we picked a college just like any other average person. What we can afford, if we can have any financial assistance, what programs are available in the degree we are chosing and what makes us comfortable. I chose UND because of two different programs I thought I wanted to be part of. Eventually it became only one. My parents were never racist, none of my family ever was, how can we be when were are so extremely interracial? Well, my grandfather (God rest his soul) was, but even in his later years, he realized it was wrong, even the last time I spoke to him, he said he felt bad that in his younger years for things he had said. So my stance on this issue isn't because my family told me to think a particular way. Well I take that back. They did tell me don't let people do you wrong by making you feel bad about who you are or where you came from. I also think I know who someone's referring to about an instructor who clearly is an active protestor about the nickname. I don't agree with her if she's truly giving out poor grades because of what you choose as far as a stance on the issue. But that's exactly how I felt about the man who was supposed to be an instructor to me, and didn't give me a second glance in class until I had stated that I supported the nickname. I felt cheated out of an equal education. But you know, he taught me more than he thought. What a pity is to go through life being so consumed in something like sports when he clearly isn't involved in it at all except going to games or throwing frozen beavers on the street when Minnesota is visiting. If I've called names, my apologies. I don't recall doing so, but apparently I have. That's not my nature at all. Someone must have clearly upset me, and I stooped to their level. And once again that research paper was very ridiculous. That definitely shows one person's upbringing. And he will pass on ignorance, which we can all do without. So even if you respond to what I'm posting here, forgive me if I don't respond. I don't have much time to give you all personally. And some of you, I guess I choose to ignore it because it's just too ridiculous for me. I feel like I'm in a playground getting my braids pulled on, just like Ms. D Lajimodiere had stated once in a column. And I'm really getting tired of it. Thank you if you've read this, I'm sure I've hit and missed somethings... but I hope some of you have learned something positive and will remember it. I must get back to life, which is a good one yes.

It's hard to educate people when they don't want to learn. Such as the comments stated by Snake... Free education? I really want my money back if that was the case. Many people try to educate, hold discussion groups, etc... but then you just get passerbys that yell things or turn their nose up in the air instead of lending an ear. I've listened to both sides, and was on the side of the supporters for a very very long time. It just stopped making sense. I don't think it is right that people will look up Native American student services on any academic level, elementary level especially, to challenge that person about the nickname, not even knowing those people and where they stand. I've sat in on meetings before, and maybe one or two people supporting the nickname, came to sit and listen, and truly listen to why people are uncomfortable with the nickname. Those people I applaud, because they actually did want to learn. And that is just what they did. And in a respectable manner.