UND92,96

It would be interesting to know how many season ticketholders there are right now for UND basketball. Presumably, 2500 is the ceiling, as that is the number of permanent seats. I'm sure the end bleachers, even if bigger ones are obtained, will always be student seating/general admission. I don't think we're anywhere close to maxed out right now, but with the way the women are playing, and the prospects for the next few years, I would certainly hope for a nice jump next season.

Does anybody have any idea as to what larger bleachers for behind the baskets will cost? Or whether REA has or will be looking into it?

I was kind of expecting Bruggeman's resignation ever since her husband got the job at Northern Arizona last fall. It seemed inevitable. If I were Buning, I'd hire Bina in a minute, unless there was a lot more to her "resignation" than just not getting along with Dorn and some parents.

Care to venture a guess as to which program it would hurt more? If UND, NDSU and SDSU were all added to the Big Sky, I think you'd want to have the SDSU games in the Ralph, as well, at least if the game were played on a Saturday night. Those games often drew well over 3000 at Hyslop--although they never had to be played on a Thursday which would keep visiting fans away. Not that I would miss the cowbells, mind you.

I agree that it's not going to happen. I only brought it up as a hypothetical--would it have been practical to have done so instead of building the Betty? I look at Williams Arena as an example that it can work to refurbish a very old arena into something pretty nice. Nevertheless, I believe the odds are good that Hyslop may be torn down within the not-too-distant future. Or at least I have heard some rumblings to that effect.

I agree with you. It's at least worth a shot for conference games. If the atmosphere isn't a significant improvement over what it was when the court was in the center and/or if attendance doesn't justify it, then so be it. The Betty would always be there as a fallback, and would still be used for non-conference games.

I did a little research on the attendance issue with regard to women's basketball. The numbers are only available online as far back as the 2000-01 season, but that's a pretty good comparison since that team was the national runner-up. Also, that season all games were at Hyslop, so we take the Ralph factor out of the equation (counting suiteholders who may not be there in the total attendance, etc.). That season, the women averaged 3143 for conference games, with five games having in excess of 3100 people (NDSU, SDSU, USD, SCSU and UNO). Granted, two of those games were against NDSU and SDSU, who of course are no longer on the schedule, but the average included typically poor draws like UNC and Morningside, which brought it down somewhat. Also, all games that year were on Fridays and Saturdays as opposed to Thursday-Saturday. The bottom line is that when the team is very good as it obviously is right now, and should continue to be for at least the next few years, I think there will be several conference games per year which would easily draw better than 3000 if there was the room to put them. I'm not sure how much having bigger end bleachers would add to the capacity, but at least it's something.

Wouldn't it have been cheaper to have refurbished Hyslop? 1. renovate locker rooms; 2. new seats with backs; 3. renovate bathrooms; 4. new sound system; 5. address heating and cooling issues; 6. other (I'm sure I'm missing some things). We're still talking a lot of money, but had we known then what we know now about the Betty, I think a lot of basketball fans and alums would have dug pretty deep to make it happen. And there wouldn't have been any rent paid to REA, and all ticket revenue would have gone directly to the athletic department. And the roughly $8 million that the Betty cost REA could have been used elsewhere, or eventually have gone back to UND (in theory, anyway). Everybody wins.

I would like to give major props to Amy Mahlum for her play so far this year. I admit that I ripped on her a few times last year on this board when it seemed like she had lost all confidence and was struggling, but she has played extremely well all season in terms of running the offense, playing excellent defense, and hitting some timely 3's. It's great to see the two seniors both having career years.

Two points here. One, Roebuck probably thought the same thing we fans thought--that capacity was going to be at or near 4000. While that's still on the small side, it would have been okay for all but the biggest of games. Capacity is roughly 25% less than expected. That changes things. And just to show that the SCSU game wasn't a complete fluke, the Mary game last night was roughly 95% full. And that was for a game in which nobody thought it would be anything other than a blowout. Two, it's Roebuck's job to run a clean program and win games--not worry about the financial aspects of having hundreds or even thousands of people who want to attend games but can't due to the fact that biggest-drawing program in the league is playing in the second-smallest venue. I don't doubt that he and the players would probably still prefer to play in the Betty than Hyslop or the Ralph even knowing what we now know about its lack of capacity. The Betty gives them a better chance to win than does the Ralph, and is nicer than Hyslop. But financial good sense dictates that you don't shortchange yourself, particularly in a time of ever-expanding budget needs. I just can't get past the idea suggested by coachdags and others that the building was rushed to accommodate the world juniors, which, if true, was a lame reason to rush something of this magnitude. To me, waiting a few more years would have given REA a better idea of what sort of revenue stream to expect. At that point, a more careful decision could have been made regarding the design of and budget for the facility.

It was a nice performance tonight, and a surprisingly good turnout given the opponent (2800-plus). The next game is a big one. Augie has a long homecourt winning streak.

Yes, everybody was complaining about the Ralph's atmosphere for basketball, but had we known that the Betty could only hold 3000 people, I highly doubt any long-time UND basketball fan would have been in favor of moving into such a small facility. A lot of people had doubts when we thought it would hold 4000. All you need to do is look at the highwater mark for average attendance, and make sure it's built AT LEAST that big! If you don't have the money to do it right, don't build it until you do!

I'm afraid you're missing a big point here. Building the Betty with roughly one-half of the capacity Hyslop had was stupid, plain and simple. Anybody who has been going to UND basketball games over the past 10-20 years can attest that there have been many, many games with well in excess of 3000 people. It's not an isolated occurrence. During the 1990-91 season, the men averaged 4432 per game. It would have been akin to moving UND football into the Alerus with a capacity of 6000 or 7000. You wouldn't do it. Yes, the atmosphere in the Ralph isn't very good for basketball. But given a choice between too big and too small, it's not a difficult decision from a bottom-line standpoint.

Let's just hope Wayne Nelson is incorrect in his belief that conference games will not be moved to the Ralph next year. There's a lot of money to be lost playing those games in the Betty.

Since we now know that the Betty's capacity is only in the 3000 to 3300 range, that means we have the second-smallest basketball arena in the NCC: USD (Dakotadome) 10,000 (approx.) SCSU (Halenbeck) 6,400 MSU (Taylor) 4,800 Augie (Elmen) 4,000 UNO (Sapp) 3,500 UMD (Romano) 2,759 Building a 3000 seat basketball arena is stupid enough, but if UND and/or REA refuses to move conference games--at least the bigger games--to the Ralph next season, it's inexcusable.

It didn't take long to get an answer: link. If Wayne is correct, I'm really frustrated. How in the world can they have "estimated" the capacity up until recently? They know how many chairs they ordered. They can easily count the number of people the end bleachers can hold (especially since they're not very big). This is too weird.

I guess it was a myth. For whatever it's worth, there's a question and answer forum on the online edition of the Herald, and I e-mailed a question to Wayne Nelson about this, and also asked whether he thinks it's likely that conference games will be played at the Ralph again next year. If he answers, I'll post a link.

In terms of seats, I guess the capacity is about 3300, at least if you don't count the hospitality room. I got this directly from the Betty website:

I have to agree with you. Luckily for me, I never had to leave my seat the whole time, so I didn't experience any of the hassles surrounding the rest rooms and concession stands. The bottom line is that we have to move conference games to the Ralph, or if that is impossible for some reason, then let's hope the contract with REA would allow for conference games to be moved to the Al. Many of us questioned the small capacity of the Betty when it was in the planning stages. It took all of three conference games for our fears to be validated.

I just realized something--the women's regionals are set for March 10-13. Grand Forks is also hosting the class A boys and girls state basketball tournaments on March 9-11. Do you think it might be a little tough to get a motel room in Grand Forks that weekend if UND ends up hosting? EDIT: Also, the Region 2 class B boys' tournament is in Grand Forks March 6, 7 and 9 at the Betty! Luckily it doesn't conflict with the women's games, although it could create some headaches for the practice schedules.

I would think that only the ticket sellers at the Betty could give any sort of an estimate.

The Grygla-Gatzke kid's name is Tomas Loberg.

The same thing happened after the women's game against Augie. What is really interesting is that nearly the entire student section left shortly after the women's game. By midway through the second half of the men's game, I'd be surprised if there were more than about 1000 left. We've had worse teams (1988-89, for example), but I don't think the level of apathy for the program around town and around campus has ever been this bad.

It will be interesting to see whether there's any fall-out from last night's game. I'm sure Roebuck would resist moving games from the Betty since it does provide a nice homecourt advantage, but on the other hand, I don't think the athletic department is in a position financially to be turning away people (and their money) who want to attend women's basketball games. Can you imagine how many more people would have been turned away last night had it been a Saturday night, and had the weather been better? Keep in mind that very few St. Cloud fans made the trek, but likely would have on a Saturday. My preference would be to try dakotadan's idea next year for configuring the Ralph for basketball, at least for NCC games, or at a minimum for the St. Clould State game. Do a little arm-twisting at the NCC office if necessary to make sure it gets scheduled for a Saturday next year, too, and that it is on a weekend when the hockey team is on the road. I'm guessing that at the Ralph on a Saturday night, this game could draw 6000 to 7000 people. Possibly more. Am I wrong, or does REA use a "tickets sold" method of determining attendance for hockey, but apparently uses a "headcount" method for basketball at the Betty? I know I've been to many hockey games were there were several hundred no-shows, but the announced attendance was 11,500.

Well, it was announced as a sell-out, and the few empty seats almost certainly belonged to season ticketholders who didn't show up, so I guess maybe the capacity is less than what we were told? In any event, I don't think more than maybe 100 more people could have been fit in tonight even had there been no no-shows at all. I'm still confused as to how many people the Betty actually holds. It appears that maybe it's much closer to 3000 than 4000. EDIT: I guess I really can't estimate how many empties there were, since from my vantage point (side where the benches are), I can really only see the other side. There were very few empty seats on that side, but of course there could have been some on my side that I wasn't in a position to see.