Hammersmith
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Posts posted by Hammersmith
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Quick question. Has anyone on here ever gone to www.flickertails.com? I did a forum search but didn't find any references. Give it a try. Any other web addresses link to the same site?
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Why doesn't everyone use the third prong if it allows you to be that far out of 'compliance' as we understand it?
Two main reasons. First, there was something of a misstatement in a letter that accompanied a 1996 OCR Clarification. It used the term "safe harbor" in regards to proportionality. On the surface, it made it sound like proportionality was "safe" and, by extension, the other two prongs were less so. That was an error on the part of OCR, but it caused a generation of athletic directors to head for proportionality because of the perceived safety. A 2003 Further Clarification tried to reverse the damage by making it clear that all three prongs were equally "safe harbors", but the damage was done. In the six years between clarifications, many schools had added women's sports or cut men's sports to comply with proportionality. They didn't want to reverse all that work, so they stayed with what they had. I think this mistaken belief is at the heart of the views of a couple outspoken posters on here.
The other reason is that it's harder. I believe that, when properly applied, the third prong leads to a result that is more within the spirit of Title IX than trying to use strict proportionality(especially when FB is involved). But you can't cut corners. That's what got NDSU in trouble back in the 90s. If you use the third prong, you'd better go above and beyond with the women's sports you do have. You better have a full slate of coaches and pay them well. You better give them good facilities and budgets. You definitely can't just pay lip service to Title IX. Some schools just aren't willing to make that commitment.
(btw OCR = US Department of Education, Office for Civil Rights)
The 2003 Further Clarification: http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/title9guidanceFinal.html
The transmittal letter accompanying the 1996 Clarification issued by the Department described only one of these three separate prongs - substantial proportionality - as a "safe harbor" for Title IX compliance. This led many schools to believe, erroneously, that they must take measures to ensure strict proportionality between the sexes. In fact, each of the three prongs of the test is an equally sufficient means of complying with Title IX, and no one prong is favored. The Department will continue to make clear, as it did in its 1996 Clarification, that “nstitutions have flexibility in providing nondiscriminatory participation opportunities to their students, and OCR does not require quotas.”
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Sorry for the ugly formatting, but ...
Basically that says when criteria for use of the third prong (interests and abilities survey) was loosened up, the NCAA was opposed. --> Urged members to decline use of the Additional Clarification (a.k.a. the third prong approach).Why were the NCAA and 140 Congressional representatives opposed to the survey approach? As it says,129 womens athletes at NDSU (third prong: interests survey); over 200 at UND (first prong: proportionality).8 mens, 8 womens sports at NDSU; 10 mens, 11 womens sports at UND.Wow, not only did you totally misstate your source, you are also (exactly) five years out of date. Was that carelessness or a deliberate act?
Your source is from 2007 and is responding to a 2005 OCR Clarification from the Bush administration which significantly loosened the third prong. The 140 Democrats and the NCAA were not attacking the third prong, they were attacking this new Clarification. In fact, your source seems to favor the pre-2005 third prong. It mentions in several places that the courts do not favor institutions who rely solely on statistics to support their case.
Remember that the NDSU lawsuit came in the late-90s under the Clinton administration before the third prong was gutted in 2005. Besides that, the 2005 Clarification was revoked by a 2010 OCR letter under the Obama administration which restored the third prong to its former toughness. So your source is now completely meaningless to our discussion.
Here's my source. It's directly from the NCAA and incorporates the latest OCR rulings. It has no problem with the third prong.
And here's the 2010 OCR letter which completely invalidates your source: (five years ago today)
http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/letters/colleague-20100420.html
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Hammersmith quoted a number for FCOA at UND. Remember, that number is a max that a school can pay -- the full cost of attendance. A school can offer a lesser amount.
UND uses the first prong (proportionality) to comply with Title IX. UND's student body M/W ratio is basically proportional to its student athete M/W ratio.
NDSU uses the third prong (interests and abilities survey). That prong is not the one the NCAA recommends using; however, it is still legal were NDSU to be challenged in Federal court. What NDSU should worry about is their vastly disproportionate M/W ratios and their very, very good womens club hockey team and someone challenging their survey techniques i.e. how come NDSU isn't looking to add a womens sport (good womens club team = interest and ability).
Do you have an NCAA link backing that statement up? Because I have one that is neutral at worst, and maybe even slightly in favor of prong 3.
What a lot of you seem to forget is that NDSU was on the wrong side of a Title IX lawsuit not all that long ago. A mediator came in and gave the athletic department a list of things that needed to be changed. Within a year or so, all those changes were complete and the mediator signed off on it. A few years later, the department went through another close examination from an outside source when NDSU moved to DI. So a federal mediator and the NCAA inspectors have both looked at NDSU and judged that it satisfies prong 3. Yet some of you are convinced that an ax is about to come crashing down.
(interesting note: the four things wanted by women's coaches in this article(2009) have all been accomplished: higher assist. coaching salaries, bubble over Dacotah, soccer stadium, and renovated BSA.)
Would I like to see another women's sport at NDSU? Yep. I enjoy watching NDSU succeed in women's sports and would love to see us succeed in yet another. Do I think another women's sport will be started at NDSU sooner rather than later? Probably. I keep waffling between thinking NDSU is about to go FBS or not. I'll see some signs pointing one direction, then see signs pointing the opposite. If we go DI, adding a women's sport is a near certainty. Even if we stay FCS it's more than likely. I tend to favor restarting tennis. Low operating costs to start. Have a conference home ready to go. I'd love to restart S&D, but the facility situation is a big problem. NDSU will be adding a pool to its Wellness Center shortly(students have voted for it and it's in the upcoming state budget), but I don't know if it will be suitable for DI competition. If it is, then problem mostly solved. Hockey is possible, of course, but I'd view it as a distant third. I could easily be wrong, however. Someone far more connected to the NDSU athletic department suggested it was the most likely addition. But he posted it on April 1, and he has a habit of very dry humorous comments. He never elaborated if he was joking or serious.
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Doubt it, and hopefully WBB will be getting it this year. If they are the only ones in the league Brew will clean up.
Not to turn this into a MVFC/Summit vs. Big Sky talk, but with all this FCOA talk going on it makes even more sense for UND and NDSU to be in the same conference anyways. I bet NDSU makes an extra $400,000-$500,000 in tickets/donations this year from the UND - NDSU FB game and if they were in the same conference they and UND would get that every other year, plus a home VB, MBB, and WBB home game every year. Those games would also be conference games so they would mean a whole lot more.
That right there could be an extra $600,000-$700,000 every two years in extra ticket revenue with most coming from the football games and the donations and tickets that come with it.
The NDSU/UND game will net NDSU about another $50k in ticket sales. The $25 extra charge is only on single game tickets. That's either 1500 or 2000 tickets. The 1500 number has been quoted in the media before, but I don't know if it includes the visitor allotment. So anywhere from $38k-$50k.
There will probably be an increase in TM donations, but that will likely be more to do with the overall scarcity of tickets(sold out for three years running) than the impact of any single game. Also, there are still a significant number of grandfathered seats that are being increased to market value. Those will continue to bump up the total TM revenue until they all reach market value(whenever that will be).
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Hammersmith quoted a number for FCOA at UND. Remember, that number is a max that a school can pay -- the full cost of attendance. A school can offer a lesser amount.
UND uses the first prong (proportionality) to comply with Title IX. UND's student body M/W ratio is basically proportional to its student athete M/W ratio.
NDSU uses the third prong (interests and abilities survey). That prong is not the one the NCAA recommends using; however, it is still legal were NDSU to be challenged in Federal court. What NDSU should worry about is their vastly disproportionate M/W ratios and their very, very good womens club hockey team and someone challenging their survey techniques i.e. how come NDSU isn't looking to add a womens sport (good womens club team = interest and ability).
I might have been wrong about that number. The FCOA is linked to a number reported to the feds and disclosed by the university. It's usually in the financial aid portion of the website. According to the cost estimator on UND's website, the number is $5810. But according to UND's 2015-16 academic catalog, it's $3400. I don't know which one the university considers official. Probably the $3400, but it's odd that that number isn't built into the estimator.
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$4,000 (est. COFA) x 188 student athletes = $752,000
Using GFhockeys math with tickets we are already at $750,000.
188 student athletes would be enough for MH (18), MBB (13), FB (63), WBB (13), VB, (13), WHY (18) and then a combination womens soccer, track, softball & golf.
Doing this for VB, WBB, FB and MBB would put those programs at the top of the Big Sky conference as far as competitive advantage goes. Pretty soon those programs would would be playing in postseason very frequently and revenue would follow.
Back in 2003 a lot people thought NDSU was crazy when they moved to D1 when UND was much better across the board. I say it's time to reverse the trend of UND being a follower and be a leader in this movement. If we are going to end up doing it anyways we might as well get a jump on everyone else.
Your current COA is $5810.
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http://www.undsports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?ATCLID=209842401
University of North Dakota head coach Bubba Schweigert announced the addition of running back Ja’Won Arrington to his program on Friday. The Birmingham, Ala., native will have one season to play at UND after transferring from UAB.
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You know, it's a good thing NDSU didn't try to use this program to buy art for the new STEM building. Can you imagine the outrage?
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Wow is there a lot of lying going on in this thread. Did any of you actually read the entire Challenge bill or did you just stop at the first page? Did any of you actually read the entire list of Challenge grants from each school?
To me, it looks like the UND Foundation got greedy. They finished their own slice of pie and started eying the slice of the person sitting next to them. When the person sitting next to them finished eating their slice of pie just before the café closed, they got upset because they had planned to eat it off the plate just after the other person left.
Because UND's fundraising campaign was in full swing when the Challenge Grants were created, UND used up a big chunk of their money right away. There were a bunch of applications in Dec 2013 and more throughout the first half of 2014. By the end of 2014, UND had requested about $8.8M of their $10M. During the last two months(Nov & Dec 2014), UND put in requests for the final $1.2M.
In NDSU's case, they didn't have a major fundraising campaign going on, so the donations came in slower. NDSU didn't have any 2013 requests, and only a moderate amount of requests during the first half of 2014(about $2M worth). But the second half of 2014 came with a flood of requests. About another $2M in the late summer and fall. And Dec 2014 brought in about $4.5M. The last $450k was requested just after the first of the year. Personally, I think some of the reason for the lateness was due to the leadership problems in the NDSU Development Foundation. I know the $3M + $1.5M donation by Doosan/Bobcat was in the works long before the end of 2014, but the actual donation was held until the last minute and the announcement was delayed even more until Mayo's resignation was announced. Still, of the six athletic scholarship requests, none were part of the January request. So to say NDSU needed the athletic scholarships to fill out the last of the grant money is incorrect at best, lying at worst.
But I think the UND Development Foundation was watching the NDSU requests and thought NDSU was going to leave about $5M on the table. According to the Challenge bill, UND could have put in requests for that money. By NDSU coming in at the 11th hour with requests covering the entire amount, I bet some hopes were dashed quite rudely. It gives the comments coming from DCZ a real sour grapes feel.
In any case, grant money going to athletic scholarships at NDSU amounted to $0.15M. That means $9.85M went to non-athletic areas. (going by the names of the scholarship funds)
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I'm sure there isn't a way to determine this but is the aviaition school skewing that number? I know they pay a ton of flight costs and other expenses over and above tuition that really no other major has.
Nope. That's a separate number. The cost estimator asks if you are applying in one of the special-fee majors. And those fees are given on a different line anyway. The line I'm referring to is listed as "Personal Living Expenses". It does not include tuition, fees, room, board, and books.
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Holy mother of god. I looked up UND's current COA adjustment. This is the amount that sets the upper limit of the scholarship. The number that's thrown around most often is $3500. It varies from college to college, and each school is required to put it somewhere on its website. UND's was hidden pretty deep. (I'm not saying UND is trying to hide it for some reason, just that it's not as easy to find as most schools). I looked up a handful of schools this weekend for a discussion on AGS. NDSU was $3400, UNI was $2300, Lehigh was $2100, Texas was $4300. UND gives a number of $5800. That's insane. It means UND would be able to spend an additional $365,400 in football scholarships. That probably works out to about 20 additional scholarships. UND is ending up gaming the system before there was a system to game.
(that wasn't an attack btw, more of a sardonic quip)
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Thanks for the information. My thought on this is that on legislation that is permissive in nature, like this legislation, saying it is permissive on the rest of Division I is not much different than saying it's binding on the rest. The bottom line is that P5 just significantly increased the cap on scholarship costs and the rest of Division I had no say in it.
If you're a school of an FCS school that will likely do this (NDSU), I can see why you wouldn't want FCS, or your conference, to forbid you from doing it. You may be right that any FCS or conference restriction is doubtful. But I'm curious why you think that. It seems to me there are far more FCS schools that don't want to increase their scholarship costs than those that do. Why is a vote forbidding it so unlikely? I'm not disputing your opinion really, just curious on why you think it.
I just don't think there's the will to do so. When autonomy was passed, only either 27 or 37 schools wrote back against the idea. That's of over 330 schools. I think FCS schools that don't want the stipend will use conferences to limit its use rather than FCS as a whole. The schools from the bottom or non-playoff conferences don't care; they're not going to win the NC anyway(Ivy, SWAC, MEAC, PL, PFL). The top conferences will be in favor of stipends because if they are opposed, it will only hasten their best schools leaving for FBS(MVFC, BSky, CAA, SC, SLC). And the middle conferences aren't enough to swing any vote(OVC, BSouth).
But I've been wrong before and I'll likely be wrong many times in the future. I will say that if FGIA are disallowed by the FCS, you're going to see another mass movement of top FCS schools moving to the FBS. And NDSU will be at the front of the group. We've spent the last decade becoming an G5 school in all but name; being restricted to regular GIA levels would be a giant step backwards.
Just my opinion.
And homer was right, our AD is misunderstanding some things right now. To be a tiny bit fair, only the P5 representatives were in the room during the discussion and voting, and most of what came out of the meeting was hearsay. It took me about three days of looking before I finally stumbled across the links I posted earlier. And he wasn't the only AD to get things wrong. I read an article from Missouri's AD that was completely wrong about proportionality in regards to stipends.
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Any reason und couldn't offer say 10 full cost of attendance stipends for football? Why would we need to offer them to all full scholarship players?
No. You can do as many or as few as you want. (within certain limits) You can even treat student-athletes on the same team differently. You declare a student as full grant-in-aid, not a sport or a school. It's very individual.
Are teams going to be able to "slit" the stipends like they do scholarships?
Yes/no. You don't treat the stipend as a separate thing. What you're actually doing is modifying what the value of a full scholarship is. Say a regular full scholarship is worth $5k at your school and the value of a scholarship plus stipend is $10k. Now say you give a student-athlete $5k.If you list the student as a regular GIA, then you calculate the percent of scholarship as $5k/$5k, or 1.0 scholarship counted against your limit. But if you list the student as a FGIA, then you calculate it as $5k/$10k, or 0.5 scholarships against your limit. There's other great info in the Q&A I linked to above.
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My opinion- This thing doesn't stand a chance when it's taken to court. Not a chance schools are going to be allowed to pick and choose which sports these are offered in. This will be the death of non revenue sports at schools, including hockey at a lot of colleges.
Why? That would be like the golf team suing because they aren't funded to the scholarship maximum while FB and MBB are. If there were a case to be made, it would have happened long ago.
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Someone who pays closer attention to this can maybe explain this to me. Media stories say that the P5 conferences voted for stipends. None of the stories mention any non-P5 school getting a vote. Do the P5 schools get the exclusive vote on this issue? Does the P5 vote bind non-P5 schools and conferences? What's stopping FCS schools as a whole from voting to ban it (for FCS football)? Why is left up to each individual FCS school to decide for itself whether to do this?
I think most people will agree that FCS, generally, cannot afford stipends. However, all it takes is one school to start the dominoes falling and the arms race will be on. It's a virtual certainty that at least one FCS school will start this, forcing the hand of all the rest.
The autonomy group was formed from the vote that happened back in July or August and was ratified in October(I think). The group is made up of one representative from each of the 65 P5 schools, plus three student-athletes from each of the five conferences, for a total of 80 members.
All legislation the autonomy group votes on is 'permissive'. This means that schools outside the P5 cannot be forced to adhere to it. However, they may choose to follow these new rules if they want. The only stopping point is the school's conference. Conferences may vote to forbid their members from adopting elements of autonomy legislation. I guess there's nothing stopping the FCS schools from doing the same thing across the entire subdivision. (doubtful)
Here's the text of the legislation: http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/Official%20Notice%20of%20Autonomy%20Proposals%201-12-15.pdf
(it's 2014-13; the amendment 2014-13-1 passed, but none of the others)
Here's a Q&A on the topic: http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/2014-15%20Autonomy%20Legislation%20Q%20and%20A.pdf
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Question 1:
Why would a Bison-rube like McFeely, on the radio home of the Bison, have a Big Sky official on as a guest at all? Why not a MVFC or Summit or Western Wresting Conference official; why not an official from a conference NDSU is affiliated with?
Not sure if serious, but it's because McFeely is in Ogden, Utah for the Weber State game and Ogden is the home of the Big Sky Conference.
Here's the interview if you want to draw your own opinions on what he said(17 min):
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I still can't quote on Internet Explorer
A workaround is to click the toggle switch in the upper left corner of the reply area. It's listed as BBCode Mode if you hover over the button. This only works if you have it in BBCode mode when you start the post. Strangely, if you start the post in BBCode mode, you can toggle back to regular mode and the quote box does what it's supposed to.
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You are correct that there is a sportswriter that typically gives the FCS champ a vote in the final poll. However, you are wrong that this is the only time NDSU has received votes in the AP. We started receiving a vote last year in week 14(Nov 24) and continued receiving votes through the final poll(Jan 7). That was four polls with a high of 17 points(29th place) in the final poll. Those 17 points put us ahead of Texas Tech, Iowa, Georgia, Ole Miss, Kansas St, Arizona, Navy, Utah St, East Carolina & Miss St. Furthermore, NDSU also received votes(2pts) in this week's AP poll. Don't know if that will last, but the only other time I'm sure an FCS team received AP votes in the middle of a season was App St after the Mich. win.Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe NDSU received any votes in the AP Top 25 until the last week of the season? There are writers who always give the FCS champion a vote in the final AP poll, its been done many times in the past.
I will be the first to say that 17 points was far from "cracking" the top-25. The 25th team in the final 2013 poll received 109 points(Wash).
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I also don't believe Williston will pass Fargo anytime soon. However, I do have a friend who teaches in the Williston school district and he said they gained 600 new students from last school year to this...that's just crazy!
Not much different than West Fargo. We've been adding 500 kids a year for the last couple years. Probably another 450-550 this year. I think the district will continue to open a new school two out of every three years for the near future. It's nuts.
2004 - Cheney Middle
2007 - Aurora Elementary, Sheyenne 9th Grade Center
2009 - Osgood Kindergarten Center
2012 - Freedom Elementary
2013 - Liberty Middle, Sheyenne HS expansion I
2014 - Independence Elementary, Sheyenne HS expansion II
2015 - Legacy Elementary
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I'm wondering if that came from Taylor or from his boss. I guess we'd know if Faison asked Acting AD Prakesh Mathew to go back the the home-and-home that nearly happened in April of 2011 (adjusting the date as 2017 has since been filled by a far away, out of footprint, Big Sky school).
I didn't include the full quote because I was trying to keep things to one line when possible to keep it readable. Here was the quote from the July 28 GT email that Schlossman used in his article:
“I talked with our President and football coach. We are still going to hold to a two game deal in Fargo to get this started. For various reasons that I have mentioned before we feel that two games to start the series in Fargo is where we start. Since you can’t make another road game work in 2017 we will offer the September 19, 2015 in Fargo and another game in either 2018 or 2019 that works for you. We have options for both of those years.” -
Lets try getting a little closer to on topic again.
Ndsu scheduled another home and home big sky opponent.... Does this show there may be a willingness in the future to do the same with UND?
Also, i thought scheduling was strictly an AD's job... So who made the decision down there? Dorn? Bresciani? Little Bo Peep?
Deal's been under negotiation for four months. GT & CK signed it. JJ did a good chunk of the negotiating.
http://www.inforum.com/content/bison-eastern-washington-schedule-two-game-contract
And apparently BF has backtracked to the point of a 2-game contract with both games in Fargo just to get things started.
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Her name was Lori Knetter. I don't remember her as a player, and I don't know exactly when she played.
Lori Knetter Robbins' Bison Hall of Fame page:
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I heard the rain is slowing progress so they are behind.
Yeah, if they were planning an August open, I doubt they'll make it. Structure done, plywood sheathing almost done, brick veneer started in back, no windows, interior looks to be only at stud stage. Lots of work left.
Title Nine: Our Prong is Bigger Than Your Prong
in Other Sports
Posted
Example:
5/10 - fifth place out of ten teams
1T/8 - tied for first place out of eight teams
Colors:
dark green - first place finish(includes ties)
light green - finished in top third of conference
white - middle third
light red/orange - bottom third
dark red/orange - last place conference finish(includes ties for last place)
Symbols:
* - team competed in NCAA nationals
** - team competed in NCAA and won at least a game
$ - won a national championship
% - participated in a non-NCAA national postseason event
# - individual member of the team participated in NCAA nationals
AAxx - All American status; the first number indicates # of 1st team selections, second # 2nd team, HM ignored, didn't do FB
Sorry if I missed some honors from your guys.
Hope the image works out: