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ESPNInsider

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Posts posted by ESPNInsider

    Outside the Lines

    in UND Nickname

    Posted

    I bashed your first post because you said that UND should give up if the tribes don't want the nickname. That is what I disagreed with. Nothing about respecting Native Americans. Just because you disagree with them on the nickname issue doesn't mean you don't respect them.

    My opinion on this has never changed, the more I thought about it the more I wanted UND to keep on truckin on. Yes, I was more in the middle when the ruling came out but the more I thought about it, the more I backed a fight against the NCAA ruling. I was not on one side and then the other. You can say that my opinion has changed from day to day but it has not.

    <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

    So if the tribes prove that they, as a whole, do not want UND to use the name you want UND to still fight to use it. That would be respecting, or not respecting wouldn't it?

    Outside the Lines

    in UND Nickname

    Posted

    If it went to court and UND won, would UND keep the name?

    That would be the ultimate victory --> we defended the principle, we were right on principle, and now we'll choose whatever we want.

    Welcome to true freedom.

    This isn't about "Fighting Sioux", this is about "First Amendment".

    <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

    Why would UND go to court and spend all that money if they weren't going to keep the name?

    and I totally disagree with you. I think that the school is much classier then to fight with the first amendmant if the tribes show that they are, as a whole, against it.

    Smoking Ban

    in Community

    Posted

    Interesting to note that it has already caused Bonzer's to apply for a different liquor license.  They will now be a 21 and older bar/sandwich pub,  Therefore you can still smoke in there, but you have to be 21 to go in.  This law has really hurt some small town supper clubs that are the only place in town to get a good meal for a family.  A lot of them have just changed to restricing anyone under 21 from coming in, so they can continue to allow smoking.

    <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

    I wonder if that would hurt more? Do you think that Bonzers would lose more if they didn't allow smoking or by not allowing anyone under 21?

    I would think they would lose more by not allowing people under 21.

    Smoking Ban

    in Community

    Posted

    I'll agree with you here, in that most smokers are used to "stepping outdoors" anyway. I'll also agree that a smoke free environment is more pleasurable for a nice dinner or social gathering.

    Where I differ is in a governmental agency controlling the operations of a private business. The business owner will always have the best insight on making his/ her establishment profitable. With the smoking ban, they are, IMO, being denied their right as propietors to determine what is best for their business. Maybe no smoking will be the best thing for them... but I firmly believe it should be their choice.

    <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

    I think that the government probably has to step in though as people are dying at an extremely high rate of cancer caused by either smoking or second hand smoke. I wish, and it sounds like you do to, that bars would choose this on their own, but they don't seem to.

    Do you guys think that smokers will really fight it? Do you think that businesses will suffer?

    My thinking is that it will go on without much hassle in GF. Smaller town bars claim that it hurts their business. In GF I don't think it will. I'm guessing in a few years it will be an afterthought.

    Outside the Lines

    in UND Nickname

    Posted

    Yo "ESPN Insider", when ESPN calls you'll lose that handle. It's their trademark.

    However, a word in the public domain is a whole other matter.

    Controlling which people can use and how they can use words that are clearly public domain (e.g. Sioux Falls and Sioux City) is "probably" a First Amendment issue.

    Universities should be standing up for First Amendment protections and rights.

    <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

    See that is where we differ. I know it is their right, but is it the right thing to do? It is my right to burn an american flag, but is it the right thing to do?

    I just don't want UND fighting for freedom of speech if the tribes, as a whole, are against the use of the name.

    Outside the Lines

    in UND Nickname

    Posted

    I never said they should not respect the tribes. Here you go taking my words and spinning them again.

    Also, I did state that the tribes do play a role in this, like the FSU case. All I mean is that the direct fight is between the NCAA and the 15 Universities still on that list. If you would take one more minute to comprehend what I am saying you would understand that.

    <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

    No, you never said they shouldn't respect the tribes, but you did bash my post saying that they should. That is what I've been saying the whole time. That IF the tribes show that their people don't want it, then UND should not fight it. So do you agree with me then? Or do you disagree. You are the one spinning, spinning on what you think!

    If you would re-read my first post you would realize that you were bashing it for the wrong reasons. Reasons I think you probably agree with. Then again, I'm not sure where you'll stand tomorrow :lol:

    Outside the Lines

    in UND Nickname

    Posted

    The issue at hand does not directly involve the tribes. The issue is between the NCAA and UND. Yes, the Native Americans do play a role in that fight but UND is not taking them head on, it is the NCAA they are fighting. If the tribes file lawsuits against the University then your argument would hold water. Just because the tribes come out against UND's nickname doesn't mean UND should stop the fight against the NCAA. So to answer you question, yes.

    <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

    I'm not saying they are taking the tribes to court. I'm saying that if the tribes do not want UND to use the name, as a whole, that UND should not fight the issue anymore. Obviously you feel they should not respect the tribes even if they show that a majority of their people do not want UND to use the name. I think that is classless.

    And obviously it does involve the tribes. As was shown with the removal of FSU and Utah from the list. Why were they removed? BECAUSE THE TRIBES ARE NOT AGAINST THE USE OF THE NAME Is that involvment enough for you?

    Outside the Lines

    in UND Nickname

    Posted

    This is the last time I am going to explain this to you. The quote about it only being a name and it doesn't change the history is NOT arguing my point that UND should fight the name change. All I am saying with that is if it comes down to where UND has to change the name it wouldn't take away what UND has done as an institution or as an athletic department. They are two separate things! Read the entire post and you will see I state that I do not want to see the name change. You need to take a couple minutes and actually read the entire post and not just look for sentences you can exert to take my words and spin them. I am not wavering on this issue. I never once said UND should change the name without a fight. I am not arguing with you on this simply for the sake of arguing. I see what you are saying and I do understand where you are coming from. I simply do not agree that UND should stop there. I think there are ways of fighting the nickname issue without being "classless" as you say.

    <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

    So let me get this straight. If the tribes come out and say that they, as a whole, do not want UND to use the name, you want UND to fight the decision in court?

    That is what my original post was that you bashed, so I'm assuming that's what you feel.

    Outside the Lines

    in UND Nickname

    Posted

    And I thought the court battle would pit UND vs. NCAA not vs. the Tribes.

    <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

    HERE IS WHAT I'M SAYING:

    If the tribes come out and say that they, as a whole, don't want UND to use the name, and they can show that they have opened it up for discussion within the tribes and given everyone a chance to speak, then I hope UND gives up the fight. If the tribes, as a whole, don't want UND using the name then I don't want them to either. In the past it's seemed that there were just a few vocal minorities talking, if they can show that this is the feeling of the majority then I would want UND to respect the wishes of the tribes.

    If UND does fight the wishes of the tribes and the NCAA ruling in court they will lose a lot of respect from a lot of people I would think. I would lose a lot of respect. I would not be proud. I would not give to the university.

    Some of you obviously feel that UND should fight this to the bitter end. That's fine. I don't respect that though.

    If indeed there is a tribe who does support the use of the name, then I would want UND to fight the decision by the NCAA.

    Smoking Ban

    in Community

    Posted

    As far as the smoking ban I like it. And I agree with you that it needs to be across the board. Who cares if people feel they need to smoke. Go sit out in the 30 below winter and smoke, I don't want to breath it in.

    My feeling is that in 10 years people will be saying, "I can't believe you used to be able to smoke inside buildings"

    I used to think about that as I sat at Hyslop for b-ball games. People actually used to just sit there smoking cigerettes during the games. GROSS!

    Outside the Lines

    in UND Nickname

    Posted

    Funny how you don't list the date and time of my second quote. The second quote is from a few weeks back. The more I thought about it, I came to the conclusion of the first quote.

    Regardless, they are pretty much saying the same thing! If you read on in the second quote I said that I would like the nickname to stay. I have never once said "Yep the NCAA is right. UND should give up!" No matter how you spin my words I am saying the same thing, I am just not undecided anymore. Like Mad Man said you are not on the same page. Get your head out of the clouds and actually read my posts before you quote them.

    I still do mean what I said though. If the name does end up changing, it will not change the tradition and history of UND and it athletic program, but it would just take a little getting used to. My quote that you put in bold, to somehow strengthen your argument, does not argue against the first quote.

    I do not see anyone supporting you on this, only poking holes in your argument.

    <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

    Sorry, but how do this:

    "I feel they should fight this in the courts because the "Fighting Sioux" nickname has been the face of UND Athletics since the 1930's. I grew up following the Fighting Sioux and it would not be the same if the sports teams played under a different name"

    and this:

    "Afterall, it is just a name. It does not change the tradition, history, and pride of its alumni and student athletes."

    say the same thing? They are the exact opposite. I didn't post the time and date? You've totally switched sides of the argument. Not sure why a date is needed. You can continue to try to squirm your way out of it and that's fine. I'm done with that argument, as it's obvious that you don't know what side you're on.

    The reason I'm pointing this out is because you seem to switch sides just for the point of arguing. I could care less if people poke holes in my point. I don't want UND to fight the tribes, like Mafia said. If you do that's your right. It's also your right to fly a confederate flag and join the KKK. Do so if you please. If UND fights the tribes in court then I will never go to a game again and will never donate a dime to the school, as that would be pure classless. You may disagree and say that they should. That's fine, but please don't switch sides of the argument just to disagree with me.

    I think Mafia is right. You are saying they should fight the NCAA. I'm saying they should NOT fight the tribes. So you probably shouldn't have blasted my original post.

    Outside the Lines

    in UND Nickname

    Posted

    OK, so please pick one:

    I feel they should fight this in the courts because the "Fighting Sioux" nickname has been the face of UND Athletics since the 1930's. I grew up following the Fighting Sioux and it would not be the same if the sports teams played under a different name. I do believe that UND uses the Fighting Sioux to honor the Native Americans of the area and I think we are hearing the voices of the "vocal minority" that oppose the name.

    <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

    or

    I am undecided on this issue because I can see both sides. Obviously this issue is not going to go away. In fact just the opposite. Why not make it easier on the school, the athletic dept., etc and change the name. Afterall, it is just a name. It does not change the tradition, history, and pride of its alumni and student athletes. Don't get me wrong I would like to see the name stay but if keeping the name means not getting football playoffs, hockey regionals, etc, then I say we bring back the "flickertails".

    That's fine that you don't agree with me, but please take one stance or the other and don't just argue for the sake of arguing. You have been contradicting yourself all day and then just spinning what you say to try and get out of it.

    I don't feel that UND should fight the decision in courts IF the tribes say that they don't want UND to use the name. I realize that the tribes don't "own" the name, but I would not give any money to UND ever if they were to fight the decision of the tribes in court. This is based on the tribes showing proof that the majority of members agree with their decision. Without that I would have to make up my own mind.

    Outside the Lines

    in UND Nickname

    Posted

    Folks, this is what I'm trying to say. If the tribes unitedly (with proof) do not want the name, then I feel that UND should respect their wishes. Some people want UND to fight tooth and nail through the courts to keep the name. If the tribes that we are honoring come out and say (with proof that this is how the majority of the tribe feels) that they don't want UND to use it then how can we fight to keep it?

    Sure, if it is only 4 guys making noise and the rest of the tribal people like the name it should be fought. But we will probably not know this unless we build some sort of good standing relationship with them.

    I hope the meeting today starts a bond between the tribes and the athletic department and both can compromise and come out with many winners instead of a winner and a loser.

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