Canuck

Ummm, refresh my memory. What nationality is Bochenski? And for the record, Don Cherry spent most of his professional playing and coaching career in the United States and is a known supporter of American hockey players.

Probably about half as many games as Karl Goehring will have to win before people stop knocking his size.

Even so, would that not then rebuke this original point (which is what I was trying to do)?

Almost forgot this one. Failed miserably? Not sure I would use those terms. Failed, maybe. Miserably? Did you see anyone else making an effort at the time?

As far as the publicity stunt theory: I will be the first to admit that Wayne Gretzky, as much as any modern professional athlete, is nothing if not image-conscious. He is not, however, a publicity seeker. He will not agree to do something in which he will not be successful. Gretzky is coaching the Phoenix Coyotes because he feels he is the most suited person for the job at this time (he also surrounded himself with an excellent staff). If his presence also happens to result in an increase in ticket sales, what's the problem? As a part-owner of the team, that is his primary function: to make money! You know what else will sell more tickets? More wins. Wayne Gretzky the head coach is not a publicity stunt. It is a smart, high-reward, low-risk hockey move. Manute Bol suiting up for a minor league hockey game is a publicity stunt.

Team Canada's "publicity?" Are you serious? As I have mentioned before, ad nauseum, Hockey Canada is not in the business of warm, fuzzy publicity. They want to win hockey games. Period. Wayne Gretzky is 1-for-1 in putting together gold medal-winning Olympic teams and 1-for-1 in putting together World Cup champions. So how exactly are we defining "accomplishment?" Not measurable? You ask any hockey expert or insider with half a brain who is hockey's greatest ambassador; 99 out of 100 will say Wayne Gretzky. Yes, a function of his trade during his playing career, but also a result of his OFF-ICE contributions, which is what redwing's original point was. Many players have been traded to larget U.S. markets and created nary a ripple. Gretzky efforts to tirelessly promote the sport south of the border created an explosion in interest never before experienced in several markets. Like I said earlier, this cannot be done solely by winning a scoring title or a playoff round. It takes OFF-ICE commitment, such as talk show circuits, magazine shoots, etc. Oh? Tell that to New York Rangers fans. Maybe. Maybe not. Probably a topic for another discussion. But the bottom line is, Wayne Gretzky the executive delivered something no one else was able to do in 50 years. I admit, I don't follow your logic. Being named head of a successful organization is not an accomplishment? Let me ask you - what is YOUR area of expertise? If you are named to head a presitgious company/firm/organization within your profession, would you not consider that to be an accomplishment?

Other than: 1) Evolve into the greatest ambassador the sport has ever seen 2) Brought the sport into the mainstream consciousness of previously untapped markets after his trade to L.A. (this is not done solely with goals and assists) 3) Headed an ownership group that has stabilized a previously shaky Phoenix franchise 4) Along with Mario Lemieux made an 11th-hour attempt to bring the players and owners together to avoid the lockout 5) Served as the architect for Canada's first gold medal Olympic team in half a century 6) Served as the architect of Canadian team that won the 2004 World Cup 7) Has again been selected to serve as Executive Director for Team Canada at the next Olympics Other than that, he's proved nothing off the ice.

Are you serious? WOW. Yeah, I know, I know. He's widely regarded as the best defenseman on the planet, but he sucks. Makes perfect sense.

Philly should actually be in excellent post-lockout shape. They've already signed their top two prospects - Jeff Carter and Mike Richards - both of whom were big players at the last world juniors for Canada. Their AHL affiliate also won the Calder Cup, so there's plenty of young talent in the system.

Actually, Blackburn is no longer considered a prospect. He's been battling a freakish injury the past couple of years that doesn't allow him to extend his catching shoulder outward. It got so bad that he was playing in the ECHL for awhile, and now the plan is to -- get this -- have him play with a blocker on each hand and no trapper.

1998 Michigan squad? Makes Canuck very grumpy. 1997 Michigan squad, on the other hand?

I see the point you're trying to make, but what PCM (echoing my thoughts) is trying to say is that if you are going to make a statement like that in a professional article, it is shoddy - even bordering on irresponsible - journalism to throw such a statement out there without something to back it up. In this particular instance, the writer claims there is a movement underway among several CHL teams. But he doesn't indicate what he bases that statement on. Was it heresay? Was it information leaked to him by a CHL executive? A team executive? A parent? Facts like these DO matter. That is a pretty bold statement and tough to justify without a credible source.

In a related note...it is my sad duty to report that Hockey Canada has announced its list of 36 players invited to the Olympic tryout camp. Alas, only four are products of the NCAA (Marty Turco, Dan Boyle, Dany Heatley, Martin St. Louis). A shame indeed. Snubbed for a collection of stiffs named Lemieux, Brodeur, Iginla, Thornton... Jingoism strikes again.

Can you actually be serious with this comment? Silly me, since the issue was 'Canada snubs NCAA players' I went delusional and figured listing the number of NCAA players who have played for Canada would be relevant. Whoopsie. As soon as someone can provide some solid examples, I'll go with it. What makes me personally think this? Because I have watched the tournament all my life. I have seen NCAA players excel for Team Canada. Canada has won more gold medals than any other country; hard to argue with the results of the players they've picked. Well, more than you've been able to prove to the contrary. Again, don't tell me I'm wrong. Tell me WHY I'm wrong. Perhaps I missed it. Did you see a source attributed to that statement? I certainly wouldn't go so far as to say he made it up. Believe it or not, I know this particular writer. I've met him several times. I would be shocked if he "was making stories up," but that still doesn't mean I have to take his statement as gospel IF THERE IS NO SOURCE.

Absolutely, and, like you say, what's the harm in that? Many times the coaching staffs assembled to run the World Junior team are CHL coaches. They have that familiarity and with so much at stake and such a short time to assemble a roster, familiarity is a plus. Absolutely. As well they should, and again, that's human nature. If they WEREN'T going nuts over losing some of the best players to another league, then that would be cause for alarm. College hockey is a fast-growing option that wasn't considered as seriously by young Canadian hockey players (and their families) a generation or two ago. I suspect there were similar feelings of disappointment/resentment among the NCAA community when players such as Mike Modano and Pat LaFontaine elected to leave the U.S. to play in the CHL.

1) Brendan Morrison would have been eligible during his freshman year of 1993-94 but did not make the team. I cannot recall whether or not he was invited to camp and subsequently cut, but I can tell you that the 1994 Canadian team was absolutely loaded up front and eventually won gold, so it's difficult to argue with the team that was picked: 1994 Canadian Junior Team 2-3) Zajac and Murray I discussed in an earlier post. Zajac didn't make last year's team, which steamrolled its way to gold, and is too old this year. Murray was eligible two years ago, and (I believe) was invited to the evaluation camp, but ended up getting his U.S. citizenship and playing for the U.S. instead. 4) Ryan Bayda's freshman year at UND was 1999-00 and his birthdate was Dec. 9, 1980. That would have made him 20 years old during the 2000 tournament and therefore ineligible. 5) Brett Skinner's freshman year at DU was 2002-03 and his birthdate is June 28, 1983. That would have made him 20 years old during the 2003 tournament and therefore ineligible.

My point exactly. If most observers are new to this tournament, I think that's wonderful. For years I longed for World Junior exposure outside of Canada. That's not where my problem lies. My problem lies with many of the same people repeatedly making claims that NCAA players have been unfairly snubbed during the selection process. Well, if you are a new observer of this tournament, how do you know this to be true? Well, you would then go to the facts, right? I tried to provide those facts to shed some light on my belief that this bias does not exist. However, those facts have been igored three times now. Those facts refuted the argument, yet the argument somehow rages on. That would imply the people making these accusations have some sort of inside information beyond the numbers I provided. Having such inside info would thusly qualify one as an expert, would it not? Obviously, I'm being facetious now, but that's what the continual igorance of the facts led to. That is why I took the shot at the "experts." Maybe it was an attempt to shock certain people into paying attention to the facts before making such claims. Either way, at this point the debate has been reduced to several posters simply disagreeing with me (and a couple more agreeing with me). Yet in between, no one else has been able to provide any hard eveidence to counter mine. That is where my frustration sets in; several people insist on telling me I'm wrong, but fail to tell me why I'm wrong.

Hey, simply presenting the facts didn't work... The fact of the matter is, three times now since I've joined this board I've seen this debate come up. I log on and read several posts (many from people, and let's be honest here, weren't even aware of this tournament until the three UND boys led the U.S. to gold two years ago) about this bias the Canadian world junior program has against NCAA players. About how Brady Murray got stiffed. About how Travis Zajac got stiffed. Each time, I've presented a list of 40 NCAA players who have represented Team Canada. Forty! 4-0! Yet the shots at Hockey Canada continue, all the while the facts are completely ignored (with the exception of Redwing, who, to his credit, asked for some facts, read them, then softened his stance). Backhanded shots at posters are a result of a continual disregard for the facts. And let's be clear, the personal shots didn't start with me. The first shot was directed AT me with some lame attempt at comparing Canadian hockey fans to republicans. Forty players have played for Canada. Brady Murray WASN'T snubbed; he faced the same evalution procedures as any other Canadian-born player. Faced with an automatic spot on the U.S. team, he opted to go that route. Travis Zajac wasn't snubbed. He was left off a team that many have called the MOST DOMINANT IN THE HISTORY OF THE TOURNAMENT. We don't hear from posters who he should have replaced, only that he was snubbed. And he wasn't snubbed this year. HE IS TOO OLD. But one of the first responses to the most recent Zajac question was, 'He plays for a U.S. college.' If there is a morsel of truth to these conspiracy theories, I will be completely ashamed of the politics involved. But based on facts I was able to provide, and the facts several posters are UNABLE to provide, it is nothing more than accusations and sour grapes. If you want to make a claim, be able to back it up. That's all I ask.

No kidding. What I meant was, on what information does the writer (and you, for that matter) base this statment? I never said it had to be an "official statement." The writer says a movement is underway by some TEAMS. Ok, so which teams? How does he know? Does he have a quote from an official from one of the said teams? How about even an anonymous quote? Something, ANYTHING, to substantiate such a statment. We have none of that. Which is why I can't take it for anything more than speculation. In the meantime, how about any of the believers in this conspiracy give me 10 - no, give me FIVE - NCAA names you feel have been snubbed by the Canadian world junior team over the past 10 years. And tell me who those players should have replaced and why. This shouldn't be too difficult since so many posters on this board are such experts on this tournament after following it for two years. You even have the benfit of hindsight in these situations. Can you do it? Until someone can do this, these continual accusations of an anti-NCAA conspiracy come off as nothing more than baseless whining. Sorry to get so pissy; I tried the facts and that didn't work.

I don't see any actual source backing up the statement within the article; for that reason, I have to think that is pure speculation on the part of the writer. If what he says is true about some kind of "movement," then that would be completely assinine. But the bottom line is, it hasn't happened. Meanwhile, I ask you to again refer to the list of 40 players. In one corner, the facts. In the other corner, an unattributed statement in a newspaper article. And let's cut the indignation about Tri-City trying to "pressure" Toews into playing for them; I find it hard to believe anybody on this board is naive enough to think that recruiting wars take place only in Candian junior hockey. Puh-lease.

If the number '40' still seems too low for somebody's liking, please also bear in mind that a vast majority of Canadian hockey players are no longer junior age when they come to the college ranks (just ask Doug Woog!), therefore making them ineligible for the World Junior tournament.

As I've said before, there are no 'tokens.' With our over-the-top obsession with hockey, winning is the first and foremost consideration. Not filling some imaginary quota. Yes, the World Junior tournament is held every year. It has been eight (my mistake) years since the Canadian roster was without an NCAA player. Below, I have listed all of the NCAA players who have played for Canada; it is a listed I've now posted on this site three times whenever this debate surfaces. To answer your second question specifically, I have grown up watching this tournament. It is my favorite sporting event each and every year. I can tell you that all of these players played significant roles on the team. In fact, Kariya, Botterill and Cammalleri were all recently named to the Team Canada World Junior All-Time Team. Botterill is the only player in the history of the program to win three gold medals. Mike Van Ryn was a team captain. And so on and so on. This list should (or so I thought the first two times) make it difficult to make an anti-NCAA argument. Enjoy... "As a follow up to my first response, I thought I'd provide some facts before this "Canadian conspiracy against U.S. collegians" gets out of hand again. Please note, that I first posted these numbers last Jan. 5 (after the World Jr. tournament) when Sioux fans were insisting there was a Canadian bias against college players. I must say, as far as conspiracies go, this is quite unimpressive: For the sake of reference, my unofficial count has 40 NCAA players representing Canada at the World Juniors since 1982 (list below). That's roughly two per season, despite the fact that most of the elite Canadian hockey players choose Canadian major junior hockey over the U.S. college ranks." 2004: Jeff Tambellini (Michigan) 2003: David LeNeveu (Cornell) 2002: Mike Cammalleri (Michigan) 2001: Mike Cammalleri (Michigan), Dany Heatley (Wisconsin) 2000: Dany Heatley (Wisconsin), Matt Pettinger (Denver) 1999: Mike Van Ryn (Michigan) 1998: Mike Van Ryn (Michigan) 1996: Jason Botterill (Michigan), Mike Watt (Michigan State) 1995: Jason Botterill (Michigan) 1994: Jason Botterill (Michigan), Anson Carter (Michigan State) 1993: Paul Kariya (Maine), Adrian Aucoin (Boston University) 1992: Brad Bombardir (UND), Paul Kariya (Maine), Ryan Hughes (Cornell) 1991: Greg Johnson (UND), David Harlock (Michigan) 1990: Dwayne Norris (Michigan State), Dan Ratushny (Cornell), Scot Pellerin (Maine), Adrien Plavsic (New Hampshire), Jason Herter (UND) 1989: Rod Brind'Amour (Michigan State), Geoff Smith (UND) 1986: Joe Murphy (Michigan State), Joe Nieuwendyk (Cornell), Scott Mellanby (Wisconsin), Peter Douris (New Hampshire) 1985: Brad Berry (UND), Norm Foster (Michigan State) 1983: Pat Flatley (Wisconsin), Gord Sherven (UND), James Patrick (UND) 1982: Troy Murray (UND), Carey Wilson (Dartmouth), James Patrick (UND)......

Yes, that's exactly it. My apologies for trying to provide a second side to a debate. Heaven forbid.

Uhhhhhh.....you're welcome?

Did you know 2005 marked the first time in nine years Canada's WJC roster did not include at least one U.S. college player? This conspiracy theory simply does not hold water. When it comes to hockey, Canada wants to win. There are no Woog-ish practices going on. If there is a player playing somewhere beyond the Canadian borders that can help the team win, they will use him, no matter if he's playing in Cranbrook, B.C., or Pakistan.