[The Next Step]

This statement at the end stands out:

That would be my first take on the matter. After a pretty resounding victory for nickname supporters in a tribal vote, for the trustees to vote to eliminate the nickname now would make no sense. Angering the tribal supporters

AND

the overwhelming majority of alums right now would be totally counterproductive. (But I've found that trustees at universities can be wildly dumb, so nothing is impossible.

)

Perhaps a committee will be proposed; maybe a group to talk with the tribes about what will happen if the nickname stays?

[Seating For Football At The Alerus]

But that deal isn't about reaching the 15,000 ticket sales every year - it's about New York media coverage for both schools.

It's JMHO, but while it's not a part of the 15k threshold, it

is

about ticket sales. Giants Stadium holds roughly double the people that Rutgers could fit. Throw in the luxury suite accommodations and Rutgers would be foolish to pass up the revenue; besides, probably the only way they can get Notre Dame is to play them in a stadium that size. The major pickup in ticket demand is from Dome's NYC wannabes IMHO.

I'd say the same holds for when Dome plays Navy at the Raven's stadium in Baltimore.

Personally, I'd say the media coverage would be just about the same: you

might

get an extra national writer or two who would find it easier to get in and out of either Giants or Ravens, but TV will find you almost anywhere.

edit: all of the above holds for UConn too.

The MAC has hosted a few Big Ten teams at pro stadiums.

With mixed results as far as attendance.

[Seating For Football At The Alerus]

...assuming a 10 game schedule:

Most (if not all) schools from the power conferences are playing

12

.

[Seating For Football At The Alerus]

Thanks for the definitions for attendance. I don't see anything that would preclude the use of dual venues for "attendance" to the game in the "paid attendance" portion.

I think you would be better off saying that all tickets entitled you to free admittance to the "pregame party" at the indoor arena. And there would be a lot of attractions for kids like the inflatable jumping pit, slide, etc. Then print up enough standing room tickets to get to the required number for paid attendees. Third (and this is the hard part) get some big money donor to buy the SRO tickets, perhaps reselling some of them to say families on the day of the game.

This gets a school up to the required number of paid attendees, and also involves some families (future fans) who might want to bring the kids out for a while but not all day.

[Nickname/Logo Affecting Conference Affiliation]

Obviously, the Great West Conference needs a proactive leader who isn't afraid to tell University Presidents their business and which schools they should be associating with. I'm sure that the other conference schools aren't aware that CSU is a total sewer.

http://wgnradio.com/index.php?option=com_c...&Itemid=577

The announcement came days after the Faculty Senate took the unusual step of asking Gov. Pat Quinn to remove (the Board of Trustees) and to stop the board from hiring a president.

Earlier this month, 13 of the 15 members on the search advisory committee resigned in protest.

Watson, 63, announced last year that he will retire this summer as chancellor of City Colleges.

However, Watson also received a no-confidence vote from the faculty in 2005 after a bitter three-week strike. Faculty members contended his "divisive tactics" weakened trust and harmed the school's reputation.

Note the use of a magic word: divisive. That usually stops all debate right there.

The funny part of that article is the idea that they thought the BEST candidate was someone who was ready to retire (I assume he had maxed out his former pension). Well that, and the whitewash of the fired President's shennigans: as a University President, she couldn't be expected to know which one was her personal credit card and which one was the school's credit card; wasn't her fault that a few thousand dollars worth of her own expenses ended up on the school's account.

[Why Fighting Irish?]

"After New York Giants' manager John McGraw told reporters that Philadelphia manufacturer Benjamin Shibe, who owned the controlling interest in the new team, had a "white elephant on his hands," Mack defiantly adopted the white elephant as the team mascot,

emphasis mine.

The other version I have heard is that the American League signed a lot of older players when they started up: some people said they were "white elephants". Either way, it was supposed to be an insult: yet here we are over 100 years later and they're still using it.

[Why Fighting Irish?]

...that the name began as a slur and they took at as a badge of honor.

-AFAIK, supposedly the Purdue team was accused of recruiting local railroad workers (who were definitely NOT enrolled in college) for a Saturday game, passing them off as Purdue students. Some of their defeated (& bruised) opponents started calling them a team of Boilermakers. And that's their name today.

-Anyone know why the Oakland Athletics use an elephant as their symbol?? :-)

-For my money, the entire state of Oklahoma is celebrating cheating when they embrace "Sooners".

-Texas A&M (among other schools) uses Aggies. Not all of their opponents use it with the same respect.

Press reports would refer to the schools as the "Baptists" or the "Methodists," and the like.

AFAIK, Northwestern University was one of those: Methodists, IIRC.

And Fighting Irish I believe is the "G"-rated, prime-time, version of the slur first first yelled at Notre Dame teams.

Maybe. AFAIK, the term "

Fighting

Irish" wasn't necessarily coined for Notre Dame: rather the Irish as an ethnicity were sterotyped as uncouth, uneducated brawlers (often drunk, of course). The term just naturally flowed to a sports team, especially a football team.

[Voting Results]

I was so hurt. To this day, I haven't been back.

This certainly isn't the point of this thread, but here goes anyway: especially today,

that's

the answer. Take your business elsewhere. I'm getting "welcomed" and "thanked" every time I turn around these days. I'm a regular at my neighborhood grocery-I tend to see one checker a lot, she's shown me pictures of her grandchildren over the years. Not that long ago this woman who had seen my shopping numerous times asked me "did you find everything you needed tonight?" Obviously she was coached to say that to everyone; there's a corporate friendliness push in every store as the economy goes downhill.

Someone who finds the need to complain on a message board about percieved slights is just going to keep searching for excuses in life. Just another example for this guy.

...that's why those motorized carts are there at grocery stores and Target. They aren't for overweight people who have lost the ability to be mobile.

Again, off the track but in terms of who I've seen USING those carts I'd say its about 3-1 in favor of overweight people vs. those with oxygen tanks or something like that.

The time that stands out for me is seeing one of those big chubby guys sitting in one of those carts outside a grocery, talking on his cell. He didn't have any bags with him: I felt like saying "couldn't you talk in your CAR and let someone else use that thing?"

[Voting Results]

I don't understand what your responding to? My answer was in response to your question, "....do you think that the people you meet believe that by wearing that clothing you are placing yourself in a superior position to the Sioux?"

Since no person who I have met when I am wearing Sioux gear has said anything negative to me about the name and logo, I can't answer that question.

My point is this: for most schools, a nickname isn't something that inspires much interest from their own students and fans. IMHO your nickname has inspired at least SOME people (probably only your own fans/students/alums, but still) to learn something about NA's and their relation to North Dakota.

Not only is Sioux not a negative, IMHO its about as much of a positive as any nickname out there.

As an aside, I can say my own experience isn't yours. I've heard from both grads of other schools and people who never attended college what an incredible sight our Chief was. But just as you experienced, I never heard anyone say anything negative.

[Nickname on Ballot at Spirit Lake]

1. Since he was named Director of Indian Studies at a University, I 'assume' that he did not believe that education stopped at a much younger age than 18-19.

2. He worked for UND and as such his goal was to bring in enough grants/monies to fund the programs there. Why dilute the funds amongst all the colleges and univeristies when you can have the best programs at one university in the state?

Art Raymond was a great educator, neighbor, friend, caring individual and his death is a great loss to our community and state. I know that if he could have educated everyone, he would have. He did what he could with what he had and where he was. As a result, our University is held up as the standard for Native American studies and education.

3. I agree that the nickname and logo are not the cause of the NA problems. It's just one thing that the pro name change group feel they have control over. And has been proven by the Spirit Lake vote, the majority do not feel the name and logo are causing any NA problems.

Someone, somewhere along the line decided that there's a need for UND, NDSU and other state-supported institutions. It would have been easy to concentrate funds, resources, etc. at one place: yet that decision wasn't made that way. Therefore, IMHO if students are located at different schools then these needed, important programs that speak for themselves in terms of their vital interests to the community should be brought to those students. (Personally, I still believe that quote about "multicultural programs" was supposed to apply to the elementary school level.)

No matter who he worked for, since those quotes talked about educating the young I cannot assume that he meant wait until college age (and therefore also filter out those who don't attend college). To me, it sounds as if he was speaking as an Educator, (with a capital "E") rather than an educator at UND.

[Voting Results]

I think it's great if the Sioux name and logo generates enough curiosity in some people that they will educate themselve. I don't believe it is the 'norm'.

No it's probably not the norm: but OTOH, IMHO the number of people who come to UND and learn about the NA and the Sioux far outnumber those who go to Connecticut and learn about the Huskies, or those who go to St. John's and learn about the Red Storm, and so on.

Off the top of my head I can't think of many institutions that I would automatically put in the category of inspiring a

greater

amount of student/fan interest in learning about what their nickname means; nor many that have a nickname that have a great historical story to tell about their nickname.

As noted, you haven't had anyone else come up to you and say something negative. I'd be willing to bet that most people from NDSU, the South Dakota schools, etc. can say the same thing. Most student/alums/fans concentrate on their own schools.

[Nickname Speaks to Warriorship]

That is a great article by Mr. Harvey Uken and a another great piece by Douglas L. in the comment section.

From the comment by author "Douglas L.":

I was determined to graduate from college to go back and help our Tribe strengthen it's sovereignty and to convince people that yes we can become a fully sovereign nation, were we can take care of our people, and the people can have the confidence in their own destiny.

I was determined to graduate from college to go back and help...Quite an admirable goal IMHO. As people continue to talk about scholarships for those from Spirit Lake and Standing Rock, hopefully the ideals that Douglas espouses will live on in the new generation.

[Nickname on Ballot at Spirit Lake]

Attitudes are shaped very young. That's why it is so important to introduce multicultural programs in the schools."

I can only assume that he meant much, much younger than age 18-19, the typical age for an incoming college freshman.

And as always, he couldn't have meant to ignore every other college in the state (or country), could he? Whatever programs he desired should have been taught at every school (at whatever level) he had control over. Again, nickname-neutral.

Just as the nickname isn't the cause of the problems, attacking it at ONE University only isn't the solution either.

[Nickname on Ballot at Spirit Lake]

The vote itself certainly seems "binding" or, at least very instructive, as to the original stated purpose for the NC00's conduct, namely, that the nickname and logo are "hostile and abusive" and "offensive" to NA's. "Binding" or not, the vote results eviscerate the stated "policy" claims of the NC00 and the vulgar, sanctimonious claims of "racism" by the PC side shows.

I will find it interesting/funny to see if the NCAA tries to claim that "we need constitutional support" in the face of two popular refendums. We haven't gotten there yet, but still...

NCAA: We need this group of 12 to say what the thousands have already said. Otherwise we're sticking to our guns.

[Nickname on Ballot at Spirit Lake]

I would support the tribes receiving financial gain from marketing of the Fighting Sioux name and logo, provided that financial gain was in the form of scholarships and educational opportunities for Native Americans from reservations in North Dakota or Native Americans who are North Dakota citizens.

(emphasis mine)

I also agree that this would be good. I can also support the idea that some sort of "pre-college" education would be the beneficiary: high schools, grade schools, etc.

Here's a point I will add (and I'd love to hear what others think): as the NCAA has decided that the Standing Rock & Spirit Lake Sioux are the only people who could possibly be harmed by the nickname, does it not follow that the benefits should flow solely to those two tribes and their members??

Another point I will add: I'd like to see a system which would guarantee that as these tribal members get an education, that part of their knowledge goes back to the reservations. Maybe that's a teacher going back to the high school, a doctor going back to the hospital, an engineer going back to build roads and schools, etc. I don't know how that can be enforced but IMHO its a worthwhile goal.

The NCAA is the ideologue(s) that I refer to, they are part of the problem and they are out of touch.

The vote should show them that. They listened to people who are not representative of the NCAA's "victims". The NCAA MOIC started with the idea that the nickname is bad and the

EXCEPTION

should be that somehow the people of the tribes decide that its good: the NCAA easily could have gone the other way. The never gave a chance to people with names like "Indians" or "Braves".

In business, when you form a committee you know that they're going to do

something

(be it good or bad) to prove their worth. That's why you think long and hard before forming a committee and giving it power, and also who should be on that committee. The NCAA takes this to an absurd extreme with "the bad".

[Nickname on Ballot at Spirit Lake]

An opinion isn't right or wrong, it is merely an opinion.

Try telling that to the NCAA.

[Voting Results]

Can the tribal council still formally oppose our use of the name and logo?

I think so. Obviously they would be disregarding the will of the very people who elect them, and therefore risking a shakeup in government but AFAIK there's nothing to prevent them from ignoring this vote. I guess the vote could be referred to as a "non-binding referendum" AFAIK.

If so, to whom will the NCAA listen.

I believe the agreement speaks to the idea that the permission must come from an group that's authorized under the Tribal Constitution to speak for and/or legally contract for the tribe. Therefore, the Tribal Constitution holds the answer.

If the members of Standing Rock manage to get to vote on the issue and also vote their support of our countinued use of the name and logo, can their tribal council formally oppose our use of the name and logo?

Same answer as above.

Edit: we may have some further info on the agreement even as we speak...

http://forum.siouxsports.com/index.php?sho...mp;#entry394038

[Voting Results]

If the nickname ends up getting dropped, they'll have to find something else to whine about.

You better believe it.

Scary, isn't it?

Absolutely: and what's even scarier is that

supposedly

intelligent people will listen.

[The Next Step]

BTW, if UND gets permission from both tribes via a vote it has satisfied the NC00's criteria in the "settlement" so the Summit should have no problems with UND as there would be no re-imposition of "sanctions."

emphasis mine

I don't have the agreeement in front of me so it's JMHO for right now; but I believe the agreement talks about needing permission according to the Tribal Constitutions of Spirit Lake and Standing Rock so there's no guarantee that a popular vote meets that criteria.

[Voting Results]

... I do not believe that our name and logo in anyway helps to educate people who the Sioux people are or were. Not once in my travels has anyone asked for the history of the Sioux people when they admire the Sioux logo on the clothing I am wearing......not once.

Can I ask about the flip-side? Do you personally believe that when you wear a jersey, sweatshirt, etc. that the people you encounter think that you are mocking the Sioux; do you think that the people you meet believe that by wearing that clothing you are placing yourself in a superior position to the Sioux?

I'll also add this much: I think the number of people who support the Univ. of North Dakota who are far more likely to learn about the Native Americans because of the nickname is greater than the number of people who take the time to learn about say, the Bison or Jackrabbits.

[Nickname on Ballot at Spirit Lake]

The University has NEVER stipulated NA programs would exist only if we continue or were given permission to use our name and logo, NEVER.

Nevertheless, with the wide support of the nickname IMHO sooner or later financial support for programs desired by nickname opponents would wane if the nickname were abolished. Either taxpayer support, voluntary contribution support or both. There is a long wish list of programs seeking $$ in any form: make an unpopular decision and people will react by voting with their feet.

A question for the entire board: wasn't a gathering of some sort canceled this year? (I assumed it was something that was supported by advertising or contributions.)

The programs are an absolute good.

If that is so, then they stand on their own, both in terms of the nickname at

your

school and at every

other

school. Whatever programs are an "absolute good" should take place, be taught, etc. at the U of ND, ND State and all other tax-supported institutions. (And for that matter, Minnesota and Montana too.)

And IMHO, their "absolute good" should be so self-evident that the vast majority of people

should

recognize their value. OTOH, the vast majority of people

do

recognize that the nickname and logo aren't evil: and yet this entire board debates that very point endlessly...

[Voting Results]

...but that isn't the case. It can and does work based on the precedent set by other schools.

And I hope that

RIGHT NOW

your AD or some other person in the University Administration is seeking out some of the leaders who pushed for yesterday's vote, to try and get a meeting scheduled to show them what the University is willing to do and talk about their concerns.

[Voting Results]

All the bickering back and forth becomes secondary to the facts. 2/3 of Native Americans in the Spirit Lake tribe are in favor of the nickname.

...and...

The NCAA, the nickname opponents, etc can say whatever they want. What we now have documented, again in the most democratic way, is that overwhelmingly the members of the tribe are in favor of UND using the nickname. And they like it. And they don't see the magnitude of problems others would like to ascribe to the nickname.

What's best for the University longterm? I don't know. From this point on, however, it's pretty hard for the many charges against the use of the nickname to hold much water.

(emphasis mine)

That's the long and short of it for me. All the yelling (by a very small group of people both inside and outside of the NA community) doesn't prove anything. There was an up-or-down vote and one side won: and in a US Congressional or national election the vote would be described as a landslide win.

Personally, I would

LOVE

, I repeat

LOVE

to hear some of the reactions today from not only the on-campus whiners but also the NCAA MOIC clowns.

For a long time you arrogantly presumed to speak for this group of people: now that they've told you to mind your own #$%^, business, what do you have to say?

[Nickname on Ballot at Spirit Lake]

Then tell me why the other state universities don't have all these NA programs, I agree with you but UND has significently more than other universities.

My point is that the programs that are out there to get smart kids who can't afford college

into

college should be far, far more color-blind, gender-blind, etc.

To the extent that there is an already-existing program at UND for some specific ethnicity: if it is determined by the taxpayers that it is needed, then IMHO it should be a program that exists for all of the taxpayer-supported schools within the state of North Dakota.

I don't think your nickname (

whatever

it is) should affect who gets a scholarship at your school: and that goes for schools in North Dakota, South Dakota, Maine, Hawaii and everywhere in between. Yes, I recognize that there may be some exceptions but IMHO they should be privately funded.

[Nickname on Ballot at Spirit Lake]

Doing that would make us hypocrites.

If the nickname is eliminated, there will inevitably be a backlash. For how long and to what extent that backlash occurs, nobody can predict.

Regarding the stats on people with similar test scores and qualifications yet different ethnic backgrounds getting a differing amount of scholarship dollars: Its JMHO, but that isn't a University of North Dakota concern-rather it's a concern for your state's entire college system, and the higher education system throughout the US as well.