Chief Illiniwek Supporter

I agree with your opinion. The potential harm to the STUDENTS would not occur until next fall, but the potential harm to the UNIVERSITY started last year when we were prohibited from hosting some NCAA games-and there's talk that since we may be NIT-bound this year, the Trustees wanted to get our basketball team a home game. Oh, and I think she's using the word "associate" meaning that they would have those NCAA banners at Illlinois. She's trying to argue that in non-tourney events, the NCAA hasn't barred anyone from coming to Champaign for regular-season games. I hate to be mellodramatic, but how many pieces of silver???

I would like it too if our Board had the guts to sue the NCAA. The way I read that quote was that the judge was essentially telling the students that they had no standing to sue: an opinion many predicted yesterday.

FWIW, there was never a tribe called "Illini". Illiniwek is a word in the shared language of several tribes. If you have ever seen the movie "Little Big Man", the meaning comes closest to the term "human beings" as it is used in the movie. According to some, it was a term that described all of the people that these tribes were aware of on earth. They had no knowledge of the Plains Indians, the Indians who inhabited what is today called New England or any other areas. For us, this has been a double-edged sword: we have nobody to ask permission of (a la your school, Utah or Florida State) but that also means that just about anyone can claim to be slighted (as was seen when a totally unrelated tribe tried to grab back a costume purchased on the open market for publicity). Most of the tribes who used that language eventually assimalated into other tribes or died off (some were killed off by other Indians). One of the most prominent of the still-existant tribes is the Peoria tribe, located in Oklahoma. I don't recall exactly why we got a pass on the name, but I do seem to remember that it had something to do with the idea that the University was using "Illini" to refer to students before we even had sports teams.

Here's a story on the court's decision. For me, the most interesting part was the quote from the judge-words to the effect of "Its an easy sell to say that the NCAA is arbitary and capricious when you compare the enforcement of Florida State and Illinois". That's the angle I wish our trustees would have taken months ago. But I'm not a lawyer. http://www.news-gazette.com/news/u_of_i/20...lawsuit?src=rss

University of Illinois STUDENTS sue to keep Chief Illiniwek. http://www.news-gazette.com/news/local/200...t_to_save_chief I'm proud of our students. They have 100 million times more backbone than the adults on our Board of Trustees. BTW, the story makes a passing reference to North Dakota's lawsuit and the injunction.

Editorial from the hometown newspaper at the University of Illinois-Chief Illiniwek is leaving sooner than most people think. http://www.news-gazette.com/news/opinions/...r_chiefs_demise Good luck to your school. Be happy for at least one thing-you had the courage to fight.

I believe you are correct. About 2/3 of the way down in this link... http://www.ncaasports.com/story/8706763 ... you'll see a list of fourteen schools. Add in William and Mary and I think that's where they got their 15. If they were talking about 15/18, then Illinois, North Dakota, Utah and Florida State all have not changed anything. That makes the 15/18 impossible. I found this quote quite amusing: The North Carolina-Pembroke BRAVES were deemed not to have references to Native American culture? No, that's not correct: they threatened to sue the NCAA and the NCAA backed down. And the Aztecs of SDSU are refering to native North Americans, but not natives of the area currently within the boundaries of the USA. The "Rainbow Warriors" of Hawaii get some sort of exemption that was not available to the Warriors of Marquette University.

Here's a story about how our former Chief Illinwek's are trying to keep the trademark: http://www.news-gazette.com/news/local/200..._over_trademark I'm embarrassed by my university again. Clearly the "unconquered" spirit that the Florida Seminoles keep alive becomes something more like "surrender without even trying" at Illinois. Good luck to your school with the lawsuit. I fear we're going to take a step that we will never be able to take back, and the consequences may not be pretty for the athletic department.

Same old story, throw everything against the wall and see what sticks. Can't get people excited about "hostile and abusive"? Throw racism in there. People are wavering about something else? Toss in the "mockery of our sacred religion" stuff. No violence against the supposed victims? Lets break some windows ourselves, that will show how dangerous these nicknames and symbols and drawings are-they're the CAUSE of campus unrest. Keep on screaming about how there will never be peace until the "racism" ends; then once you do get a change just tell everyone else to shutup because "hanging on" isn't going to do any good. Everyone else should give up, because the people who want change never did.

Seems to be a common theme. I've heard it called "throw all the (things) against the wall and see what sticks". Of course, people are never called on their false arguments. I misspelled "discriminatory" above, but I won

http://siouxsports.com/forums/index.php?sh...mp;#entry220121 Perhaps I posted this under the wrong topic.

The latest on this story is that not only did the University of Illinois return the eagle feathers that Frank Fools Crow sold to us in the early 1980's, we actually sent him more eagle feathers that we had in our possession. And all of those sacred items were either lost in a fire or perhaps stolen from Fools Crow's truck. Was the truck on an Indian Reservation at the time of the theft? There is no information given on that question. But if so, what does that say about how someone on their own reservation treats the items of their religion? http://www.news-gazette.com/news/local/200..._illiniwek_garb This only reinforces the idea for me that this was primarily a publicity stunt. A theme for those protesting Chief Illiniwek has been that the dance is a mockery of their religion. This article seems to say that more than one Indian observer views the dancing as more social than religious. I realize this isn't an issue for North Dakota, but it does speak to the idea that some Indians (and others) are willing to try anything to make it seem like these schools do everything in a discrimantory and callous manner, uncaring of other's traditions. I noticed over the weekend that your hockey team beat Minnesota, congrats on that. If the Gophers decide they don't want to play you next year, you can be sure that more than a few people will say that it has nothing to do with the PC issue and everything to do with them not wanting to lose.

The DI has gone back and forth. A long while ago they were anti-Chief. Then the next year, a new group of students came in and changed the editorial stance to essentially neutral. One of the real newspapers contacted the leader of the pack who didn't like the Chief, a new grad who had gotten a job in the Seattle area. The young alum replied that he "didn't think that issue was important anymore", didn't care that much about it and basically hung up. I haven't kept up with the mood swings of the DI lately, but if you read the editorial you'll see that they blame the Board of Trustees for not making "a decision" but clearly the decision they favor is getting rid of Chief Illiniwek. I think if the Board had made the decision that Chief Illiniwek should stay, these students wouldn't like it at all. I'd like to trace the DI's editiorial stance on using the name "Illini"; they probably didn't like it very much until the NCAA figured out that they couldn't change it. I noticed that the nickname wasn't mentioned today.

Any videos of Irish lawyers, nurses and students describing their lives and saying they aren't mascots? Greek lawyers, etc? For that matter, miners? Railroad workers? The same question could be asked of the Notre Dame leprachaun, the fictional Spartan warrior depicted by MSU or the fictional Trojan warrior used by Southern Cal. The biggest question to be asked is if the moviemakers visited Florida to talk with the Seminoles. Oddly enough, the entire article starts out with the idea that there is no such thing as race. And then goes on to talk to various "victims" who blame everything that has ever gone wrong in their lives on this non-existent factor. And this is being used to urge that sports logos these people don't agree with be changed, because they depict something that doesn't exist.

I looked it up. It was the second person who portrayed Chief who went to the Pine Ridge Reservation in South Dakota to obtain clothing. He purchased a suit of clothing (custom made for him, not anything that was a heirloom) and other items. This happened at the very begining of the Great Depression, during the winter of 1929-30. Here is a quote of interest: http://www.uillinois.edu/trustees/dialogue...t_files/IV.html

The NCAA will not expand the ban on holding post-season events in SC and Mississippi, but they won't renounce current policies either. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070123/ap_on_...onfederate_flag I like the quote about how it would be unfair to expand the bans considering the schools have no control over the issue. Don't they see that using that logic, the original ban is equally unfair??

After all the publicity, it turns out that the tribe had the feathers all along. http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/c...ocalchicago-hed I can't tell anyone else anything about their religious beliefs; but I'd think most people would know where their sacred objects are at all times, rather than go around screaming that they'd been taken and they want them back. This would kind of make me think the whole thing was about publicity and nothing else. A lot of people have thrown in the "religious" aspect to the dance. But OTOH, others have pointed out that you can travel to Indian reservations and by paying a fee, you not only can observe the dance (which doesn't seem to bother the actual Native Americans performing it, who don't mention religion) but also actually participate in the dancing too. Also, very often you will see Pow-Wow's in the Chicago area that feature fancy dancing competitions, with no claim that it is a religious rite at all. These types of things tend to confuse the issue for those who claim our dance is a mockery of Native American religious rituals. As one person wrote; every time I drink wine, its not a mockery of the Catholic faith. By definition, mascots are all "imitiations". The Spartans, the Aztecs, the Irish, the Trojans; all of them are imitation. Personally, I would feel better if everyone was treated equally. The first Chief Illiniwek actually traveled to a reservation-perhaps one in the North Dakota area-to learn about the dance. And others may also have done so, but its not mentioned anywhere so I won't claim it has been done since. FWLIW, for many years (probably at least twenty, and maybe more) the outfit was on display in our Student Union. But one year for our homecoming game, the Chief Illiniwek haters went thru our Campustown business district and broke every window that had a Chief Illiniwek painted on it. The painted symbols were put their by students to promote spirit in advance of the homecoming game, but that was part of a "crime" to the haters. The end justifies any means to these people. So the outfit has been taken off display. Its hard to compromise with extremists; its been tried and they won't accept anything but the elimination of Chief; and several of them want the nickname changed also. The NCAA pronouncement won't persuade them otherwise. We even had an old-fashioned 1960's era sit-in a few years back (perhaps 2004 or 2005). Our Board of Trustees has explored compromise on more than one occasion and finally came to the conclusion that it was impossible.

Here's the latest: the tribe may have lost their religious symbol, the eagle feathers: http://qconline.com/archives/qco/display.php?id=323756 I find it interesting that they're certain that they didn't get the feathers, but they can't quite pin down the date of a man's death-someone who died within the last 15 years, BTW. Personally, I couldn't trust their record-keeping system but thats just my viewpoint.

Same thing with nearly everyone who has a lot of money (or no worries about future income) and a lot of time on their hands. I'm a famous singer; therefore my political opinons are important. I've been in movies; you need to listen to me when I speak on social issues. I inheirited a ton of dough; I get to hold sit-ins and my protests are forgiven years later, no matter what the harm. Career politicians/professors/political hacks are no different.

LOL, I was thinking the same thing. The story is long, long ago one of the first land purchases my family made was virtually a swamp. You know the story: too many children and a small parcel of real estate, the land was sold shortly after the original purchasers died. Of course, that land is now nearly directly underneath the intersection of two interstates near Chicago.

I'm guessing that he'll say whichever one he believes will get him the most publicity.

FWLIW, Wisch has blogged several times on the Chief issue. I'll post a few other links when I can find them.

Yes, all these votes and resolutions that are supposedly the expressions of the "will of the people": nobody's ever been able to give me a straight answer as to how often we're going to re-vote. Is one vote/resolution good enough for a lifetime? Clearly not, if you buy into this argument. My Father or Grandfather or ancestor gave you this gift, but now I want it back. Because, uh, the name of your state isn't representative of the costume he gave you. Yeah, that's it. So give it back. Wouldn't it be wild if when this guy died, his child gave it right back to the University of Illinois? And then later, another descendant could demand it back, and then maybe we'd get it back after that, and.... well, you get the picture. But returning to the idea of the voting frequency: how about an annual vote? Change nicknames back and forth as of September, each and every year. Of course, if you go for that one, twice a year isn't so different, and then monthly, and so on. BTW, France just heard about this. They want the Statue of Liberty back. Something about us not using Liberty the right way. Is a flaming spear thrown into the middle of a football field really an accurate depiction of Seminole life?? Who gets to reclaim the foam rubber suit San Diego State uses? Speaking of foam rubber suits, how about that one in use at Michigan State? Along with the chariot, of course. And the sword that Tommy Trojan was slamming into the turf at the Rose Bowl? Somewhere, someone wants to reclaim that. I'd lay money that a UCLA alum of Greek descent is preparing a "demand" right now. Make your own costume, its "inaccurate". Use one that was a gift, and "you're not using it right". Clearly, some groups just keep throwing stuff against the wall to see what sticks. This entire issue goes back to the question of who owns history. Who owns the idea of The Godfather, Mario Puzo or the entire Italian population? All those John Ford Westerns: owned by him, or the descendants of the Indians and Cowboys depicted? WWII movies? TV shows? You name it, if you use MY group I have veto power over the image in pepetuity. Have any of Lincoln's heirs looked into that Audio-Animatronics thing at Disneyland? The Disney folks have made a fortune with that.....