DUGrad
-
Posts
13 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Posts posted by DUGrad
-
-
I just read the post in the other thread... How come the moderator closes this right away? No chance for NDSU fans to respond. What a load of crap. Over on the Bisonville board I notice that threads aren't shut down after NDSU fans start threads about UND. The moderators allow sioux fans to respond (and they do).
IMO it's gutless for the moderator to shut out NDSU fans from posting.... If this is going to happen the moderator should remove the whole post.
-
Any idea when the NCAA will make their decision regarding UBC? Everyone keeps on talking about it but if it doesn't happen IMO UND has no chance.
-
I'm not discounting the Mid-Con, I'm just saying the Big Sky is more attractive. Ask most NDSU fans a year ago and they would tell you the same thing. Some will still say it.
Regarding the fans who want Big Sky... Do they know that NDSU would have to add tennis and find homes form Baseball, Softball, Mens Soccer??? While those are not big money sports they certainly are important (especially softball which I believe had much success at the D2 level).
The Mid-Con is a much better match for NDSU.
-
Go back a few posts where I said that UND would still schedule NDSU and SDSU, in addition to Big Sky schools. The more recognizable the name the more likely you are to have fans turn out. Getting into the Big Sky would mean that the sizable alumni base in both Denver and Seattle/Portland would be able to see the Sioux play, hence more support ($$).
I'm not discounting the Mid-Con, I'm just saying the Big Sky is more attractive. Ask most NDSU fans a year ago and they would tell you the same thing. Some will still say it.
Why do you believe that there are more UND grads in Portland and Denver than in Chicago, Indy, Kansas City and Detroit??? For some reason I think that North Dakota grads probably stay in the Mid-West. I would be willing to bet that there are more grads in those four cities than in Portland and Denver.
There might be non conference games every few years between NDSU/SDSU and UND. It won't happen every year though. The lure of big mney from teams like Minnesota, Iowa, etc is too much to pass up. Given the choice, NDSU would take the money and run ---- every time.
-
I never said they were a land-grant school, just a flagship school. UND is not a land-grant either, but they are a flagship school. Idaho St. is the second largest university in Idaho with a larger enrollment than any of the four Dakota schools. All I meant was they're one of the largest, state-named schools in Idaho. Since UND is also, I think casual fans will be more interested if they play someone like Idaho St. than they would when they play a school named IUPUI, or Oakland.
For some reason I don't think that the casual fans would know the history of ANY of the schools not named Montana, North Dakota or South Dakota. Further more I think that the casual fan will go to any game which is convenient for them - regardless of name.
Why wouldn't you want to be in a conference who has IUPUI - the only school abreviation that can be spelled the same forward and backward!
-
Games against Montana and Montana State will put butts in the seats in BB. The same can't be said for games against Centenary and perhaps to a lesser extent Oral Roberts. Athletic departments run off money. Games against Big Sky teams would attract larger attendance, more $$.
That's exactly what I don't understand.
So my question is where all the extra money comes from? Certainly the BSC schools would be less of a draw in basketball than the Mid-Con. With the Mid-Con comes with the following advantages:
1. Playing NDSU/SDSU and possibly USD twice year in basketball - after all with the theory about the BSC, no where is it mentioned that USD would be in that conference.
2. While North Dakotans might love to play the Montana teams, the reality is that the Mid-Con's team are MUCH MUCH closer. It is very possible that (outside of the dakota schools) UMKC and Western Illinois would become rivals since their proximity is closer than most of the schools in the Big Sky.
3. Time Zones.... With the addition of UND the BSC will span 3 timezones, there will little to NO TV/Newspaper coverage same day (for TV) and next day (for newspapers) for games that are played in the Pacific Time Zone - this would include games against portland, sac state and UBC. If these games are played with a 7pm start, the games would end around 9:00 or 9:30. That would mean it could possibly be 11 or 11:30 Central Time. That would obviously miss the news and most newspapers have deadlines of midnight for next day print. I doubt that most of those games would get published.
4. With a significant percentage of your games in the pacific time zone and lack of tv/newspaper that will make it harder for people to keep up on what's going on with UND athletics. That will single handedly have an effect on the casual fan - which makes up at least 10% of each home draw.
The way I see it, the ability to play home games against NDSU, SDSU, USD, Oral Roberts, UMKC and Western Illinois has way more benefit($$$) than one homegame a year versus Montana and Montana State....
The choice should be clear. I don't understand why there are not threads with scenarios of how UND will get into the Mid-Con. Your chances are MUCH MUCH MUCH better there than in the BSC.
After all, it's hard to get interested in teams when you only hear about 1/3rd of the games.... Yes, and I know about Big Sky TV.... The fact is that MOST fans will not pay for such a service. Maybe the die-hards but 90%+ won't spend money on that.
-
Perhaps it is not the Big Sky which UBC has their sights set on.
UBC tantalizingly close to NCAA nod
If they went D2, what sports would compete at the D1 level? Hockey and
?? Iguess everyone assumed that they would go D1 right away due to size but in some respects there might be value to go d2. -
You are correct that NDSU and SDSU would be huge rivals, but they would be regardless of which conference UND is invited to. Look at Florida/Florida State. Different conferences, huge rivalry. I would look to expand upon what UND would already have.
I disagree with your perception of Big Sky not being more prestigious. Whether or not they are just known for football or not the conference is well known. The main reason anyone has heard of the Mid-Con is throught the expolits of Valpo in MBB. They are leaving for the Horizon. What does that say for the Mid-Con? Look at the overall stability of the Big Sky over the past 20 years and compare that to the Mid-Con. I am not trying to run the Mid-Con down, I just don't think that it is as highly regarded as the Big Sky.
I still disagree with your perception of the Big Sky. Here is why... Indy, Chicago, Kansas City, Detroit and Tulsa. These are a few of the cities where there are Mid-Con teams. With big market cities comes exposure as a conference. I think that the folks in North and South Dakota probably had heard of the BSC due to their georgraphic closeness to Montana and Montana State, I don't believe that the BSC is more "known" than that of the Mid-Con.
If we're honest with each other the only sport that is really known nationally (among all D1 schools) is Basketball. Most people around the major cities in the country don't know much about D1AA football - even though the BSC has had success in that sport. If you ask most college sports fans around the nation, they have heard of schools like Oral Roberts and Valpo(due to the national bball tournament).
While you might want UND to be a part of the Big Sky (almost entirely due to football) you will find that the lure of D1 basketball will SOON overshadow your football program(regardless of DII success). If UND really wants to make it's name known nationally (because let's be honest most the nation could care less about hockey) the smart move would be to go east to the Mid-Con.
I am wondering what the folks over at USD think. They don't have any connection to DU, UBC or the Montana schools. I would think that they might be leaning towards the Mid-Con. After all, I think that they are much more into bball than baskeball.... If they lean towards the Mid-Con this might kill your chances for a travel partner to the BSC (even though no one has seemed to mention them in this discussion).
-
I think that the general consensus among UND and probably NDSU and SDSU fans is that the Big Sky is a better fit insofar as peer instiutions. I see UND having more in common as an institution with the likes of Montana and Montana state than I do with UMKC or Centenary. I also think that nationally the Big Sky is a more prestigious conference than the Mid-Con as well.
Grand Forks on the east border of the state. A border war with the Montana schools would solidify UND's fan base throughout North Dakota and really fuel some rivalries. I don't think you would get the same rivalries in the Mid-Con.
I am wondering what having a common peer school has to do with Athletics? While I think that it's important that a conference isn't made up of horrible academic schools, the fact that the schools are "land grant" doesn't seem to make much sense to me. The only thing that I think is truly important (from an athletics perspective) is $$$. No matter the conference UND would be wise to join one which will have similar schollys.
I do think that the Montana schools would be a good rivalry but not as good as that of NDSU, SDSU and USD. The history between those three schools can not be argued. In my opinion, I think that UND and USD should join SDSU and NDSU in the GWFC. If they can also get into the Mid-Con, all of a sudden a large percentage of the Mid-Con consists of plains states (including UMKC). For that to be the case Centenary and possibly SUU would have to leave. If that were to happen I think that the Mid-Con (in conjunction with GWFC) could possibly become a premier league. As it stands now the Mid-Con seems to be a stepping stone for bigger better pastures. UND and USD could add HUGE amounts of stability and credibility to that league.
As far as perception around the nation. I don't know that I agree that the big-sky is more prestigious. They are only known in football. Even then they are usually only a middle of the pack conference. The BSC has quickly been outdone by the GWFC(even with only 5 teams).
-
DUGrad:
I can appreciate your skepticism, but there is a lot of additional information that you need to consider.
First, because of new NCAA regulations for conference autobids, the Big Sky needs one additional DI core member, a status that takes 13 years at the DI level to acheive. UNC, UND, USD, NDSU, SDSU, and UBC are not core members and will not be till late next decade or early in the 2020's. The only two real possibilities to fulfill this need of the Big Sky are DU and SUU. Adding SUU would destabilize the BSC further, as both Montana and Montana State would start seriously looking a the WAC if SUU was added. For future stability, the BSC badly needs DU and is pursuing it with vigor IMHO.
Second, DU and the Sunbelt are not a match. The Sunbelt is a IA football league that really would like to see DU move on (so it can add future IA football schools, like Texas St., and perhaps Appalachian St and Georgia Southern). DU's athletics clearly does not fit with such a conference, especially after New Mexico St left. DU's conference options are minimal: the Horizon chose to stay a purely Great Lakes conference, the Mo Valley is full and stable, the WCC has declined DU's offers of transportation subsidies, and the WAC interest in a 10th non-football playing member has subsided. DU will not stoop to the level of the MidCon and would prefer not to be in the Big Sky, unless it upgraded itself more to DU's liking.
Third, with UBC likely receiving NCAA DI membership, it will be (and probably has been) pursuing conference membership. Since UBC will be playing football at the IAA level, the only western conference options for it would be the Big Sky or a WCC/Great West Football combo. The WCC has expressed no interest in adding a large public university, so that leaves the Big Sky. With UBC being practically a PAC-10 university academically and offering the large Vancouver media market, the Big Sky would hugely benefit from more media exposure, television $'s and would be viewed more positively academically. UBC would get very strong support from schools like Portland St., EWU, Montana for membership. With UBC in the Big Sky, the Big Sky would effectively be looked at as THE NCAA conference in the western Canada (consider the media dollars that would bring in). In the future, other western Canadian universities would look to the Big Sky first if they were to join the NCAA. Since UBC would be an upgrade academically and has a unique athletic offering similar to DU, DU would be much more likely to want to join the BSC.
Finally, a third school would be needed to get conference membership to 12 (11 is a bad number for scheduling). Who would that be? Not SUU (DU as well as UM and MSU would not agree to that). Likely not a second Canadian school until UBC is firmly established. Since most Big Sky schools are not familiar to western Canadian audiences, it would be natural for the Big Sky to add one that is: UND. UND is a familiar name with Canadian sports fans, especially after the World Juniors Hockey tournament. UND would have allies in its bid from UNC, DU, MSU, UM, and UBC. Portland St, Sac St, and EWU, having been placated with a UBC and DU addition, will not object so stridently on geographic terms. UND does offer the Big Sky a media package that no other existing Big Sky schools can match: a Fighting Sioux Sports Network on cable systems in North and South Dakota and NW Minnesota. This same cable network could also offer a Big Sky sports package with the FSSN is not televising: added $'s and exposure to the Big Sky.
Getting DU to move to the Big Sky is the linchpin for this whole scenario. As PuckSwami, a very knowledgable DU fan (mostly posts on USCHO) stated:
I am not the only one that sees potential here.
I read and re-read your post... A few things that I don't get...
1. You mention that a third school would be needed to get the BSC to 12... Is this assuming that DU joins the BSC with UBC? The presumed third school would be UND?
2. Why would SUU destabilize the BSC? Are the Montanta schools looking to leave and would that push them over the edge to do so? What are the chances that BOTH Montana schools get into another league?
3. The last thing (and I am probably the least knowledgable person on this board), why would UBC's allowance into the NCAA make schools like Portland State, Sac State and NAU want to include UND? I get the DU rivalry with UND and the familiarity/likeness of the Montana schools. That would certainly make a case for those schools to vote in favor. In my opinion, unless UBC and DU's addition gets them more $$$ from the NCAA they would never want to accrue the extra expense.... More travel = more expense. Is there some reason that i'm not seeing regarding the swaying of those three schools?
?? From what i've read, NDSU/SDSU were not considered becasue of travel expense. Certainly those schools are all similar institutions. Presumably if money is the big issue in their case why would it not the the deciding factor in UND's case? -
we obviously know that this scenario is a long shot. we're not overly optimistic it will happen, but it would be a good thing to see for UND. most people on the board are just throwing out ideas. brainstorming. we know that a majority of the things that are suggested (other than ndsu and sdsu voting UND into the midcon in a couple years) are not realistic.
aff... the reason so many people are annoyed by your posts is because we know that what we're suggesting is far from reality. it's just fun to toss out ideas, even if they may seem to be ridiculous. we understand that you don't think UND will get into any conference other than the midcon. for most UND fans, unfortunately, that seems like the only feasible option. however, you have to know that going into this we're not expecting ubc to join the the big sky, then demand that du comes with, in turn UND would get invited. we're just throwing out possibilities, no matter how small they may be. we don't constantly need to hear "this will never happen because of blah blah blah..." we know it most likely will never happen. but we're just tossing out ideas. what fun would it be if we only speculated on things that were guaranteed to happen?
I understand that this thread is speculative at best. My question is why the posters to this board are stuck on the Big Sky? I would think that the Mid-Con would have more to offer UND than the Big Sky. In my opinion, the only thing that the Big Sky seems to offer (over the Mid-Con) is 1 division for all sports. Outside of that the Mid-con seems to be better. They have better teams and better markets which make recruiting and national exposure (as a whole) easier...
As it stands, the GWFC seems to have as much or better talent than the BSC. Assuming that the GWFC adds UND and USD that league (with association with Mid-Con) could stand to be one of the more talented divisions in D1AA. While there currently is no autobid for playoffs this could certainly be possible in the next 3-5 years. Outside of an autobid, I forsee at least one team from the GWFC added as an atlarge bid for football playoffs in the near future.
So, in the end, I question why UND fans would be stuck on the BSC when there really is no big advantage.
-
I'm new to this whole conversation. I live and work in Denver and was talking to a co-worker who is a UND graduate. I had never heard of the whole "UND to Big Sky" debate until yesterday. My co-worker told me to check out this board and look at the theory. I read various threads and here are some thoughts.....
After reading the scenario, I just don't know if the scenario really seems realistic. In my opinion, several things would need to occur prior to UND/USD being looked at.
NAU, Eastern Washington and Portland State would all need to change their mood on travelling to the Dakotas. While UND might be a great academic and athletic school the fact is that those schools simply don't have any motivation to expand that far east. If the conference was looking to expand there would need to be significant interest by at least 2 of those three schools. I am not totally sure but I believe that 7 of 9 schools would need to vote for a UND site visit in order for it to happen.... NAU might be able to be convinced but I don't know about Portland State and East Wash...
Another thought regarding expansion to Canada, USD and UND. If the Big Sky were to expand the Canada school would get in right away. That puts the BSC at 10 teams... If there where thoughts of expanding further wouldn't they take a look at SUU before coming to the Dakotas??? At most of the schools in the BSC, money is a HUGE HUGE HUGE deal... While academic quality, programs, etc are important, the conference is for athletics and ultimately, cost will be the decision maker. SUU has horrible programs but the low cost of travel, in my opinion, would be more important than the quality of UND/USD's programs.
Maybe i'm missing something. While the theory can not be ruled out (since the BSC officially has no comment on UND/USD), shouldn't the Sioux backers try to temper optimism since it's less than realistic? Please someone post something that makes sense regarding expansion. Most of what's posted seems like propaganda and there obviously is much hate between NDSU and UND people. Since i'm not really interested in either of your schools (i'm not into hockey) someone please respond and be objective about reasons why this might be feasible.... I'm open to other ideas.
COUNTRY VALLEY
in NCAA News
Posted
Where did you hear this?