rabidrabbit
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Posts posted by rabidrabbit
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Good Luck Sioux! Bring back a D-II title before you move up.
Lady Jacks are hoping to add a Woman's NIT title at D-I to go with our D-II titles of yesteryears.
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In '08, there will be 13 weeks to get in 12 games. That would bode well for lining up "one & done" games with the likes of Montana & Montana St. With 9 teams in the Big Sky & Gateway (assuming SDSU/NDSU accepted in Gateway) most seasons, won't be interested in playing in GF, so you'd likely see a buy-out of the return game.
Likely, the home games in '08 would be the D-II's or check with Pioneer Conference members for a home and home (Drake, Dayton, etc.) Check with Presbyterian College, they'll be only a year ahead, and are in a 6 member conference.
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As you are appealing for games with the Big Sky schools, be aware that they are demonstrating little support in EVER returning a game to the Alerus. 13 pages about the consistent lack of actually playing a FCS team away from their homes. IF you are negotiating a home/home, make the buy-out clause by the Big Sky school expensive!!!
http://www.anygivensaturday.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18676
Great West for football will give you some games, and tough ones. It's better than being a total independent.
Good luck with transition. It's a pain in the **s.
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Thanks RR!!! Nice to see a Jack's fan posting positive things about UND right aff??
I see aff up here, but no clue who he is, at www.SDSUFans.com
I try diligently to be the same person (RR) at any sports board.
Again Great game vs UNI. Do well with the rest of the games.
BTW, 89rabbit and aff ARE NOT the same person.
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Nice Game Sioux! Like NDSU showed in 2003, you've demonstrated in 2006.
Do everybody a favor, and mop up the NCC this year, and bring a D-II championship back to Grand Forks. BTW, this type of accomplishment also occurred in the 80's, by another Great West team, Cal Poly.
Cal Poly (then D-II), beat the National Champ D-IAA (either Idaho or Boise St.), then went on to win the D-II title.
The Great West members hope that you want to join the toughest conference out west.
Think the Jacks won't benefit from your treatment of the Panthers!
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aff,
Are you saying that teams from far western states do not like to expand east or expand period?
Yet, SDSU and NDSU are in a league that have two schools in California and everything is smiles and kittens???
Riverman - VERY DIFFERENT ISSUES here. First, football and the Great West vs Big Sky.
The Big Sky is an established for years D-IAA conference with its roots in MT/ID/UT. It currently has 9 members.
The Great West was established by BIG WEST (non-football conference) schools and the transitioning NCC schools. The other alternative was to be INDEPENDENT (which Poly and SUU were in FOOTBALL). UC-Davis, because of their successes as D-II powerhouse was INVITED to move up to be a Big West member, and needed a place for football. For ONE OR TWO GAMES, EVERY OTHER YEAR, these teams, agreed to be a conference. BTW, the Cal. schools, and SUU are traveling substantially further for their OOC games than to the DAKOTAS because at 9 teams, the BSC teams now have only 3 OOC games each year, and they've got to get in a $$ game, a home game, leaving only 1 game (in the I-AA 11 game season) that can play vs their choice. Try getting a 1-2-1 home-home series with that constraint!
Therefore, there was really NO OPTION other than to create the GREAT WEST. What has turned out to be amazing is what an incredibly tough, competitive conference it has become. SDSU and SUU were, and continue this year to be the "lower competitive" teams in the conference. Yet, the Jacks and the T-bird's are playing 7 top 25, and 5 top 25 + 1 I-A schedules respectively. So if poor records, due to taking on the best that I-AA has to offer. Great West is only lacking due to few members, not because of the existing or past members. Get it to be an auto-bid conference, MEAC, Patriot, OVC could lose autobids BECAUSE OF PLAY-OFF SUCCESS by GWFC MEMBERS as invitees.
For the other sports, especially basketball (drives the rest of conferencing) proximity is much more of an issue. Therefore, UC-Davis, Poly are very happy with their BIG West affiliations, and PAC-10 for wrestling, gymnastics, water polo, and various minor sports. SUU either needs a Mid-Con partner in neighborhood, or to go to Big Sky, where they've been rejected numerous times. However, the reason for the BSC rejection has been SUU's not funding a competitive football, and academics. SUU is resolving that football schollies issue, which they need to be competitive in either the GWFC or Sky. The Mid-Con now has SDSU, NDSU, SUU, with Western IL being the "other football playing school" in the Mid-Con.
Bin has this pegged. About 2011, 2012, the Mid-Con will likely be interested in picking up another 1-3 schools, preferrably in the midwest. Get into the coordinated Mid-Con football conference (GREAT WEST), get into the Mid-Con as an ASSOCIATE member for Swimming & Diving. And the SIOUX will be the #1 pick up at that expansion. Sioux will suffer the transition independent status blues, like SDSU/NDSU have encountered, but you will survive. Likewise, I believe that SDSU/NDSU will be happy to play you on home/home arrangements when you count as a D-I event. Like Central Ark is going thru this year, and SDSU/NDSU did in '04, '08 for UND is going to be challenging.
Good luck for a competitive game at UNI tomorrow!
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To say that Kupchella is not a visionary is inaccurate. His visions tend to be more academic than athletic, but he does have a vision for the University.
He had also gone through a similar classification transition in Missouri and learned how painful they can be. You couple that together with the list that Star2CIty enumerated and he felt that it wasn't the right time. To say that he didn't think about it is being disingenuous.
I think that UND was comfortable with where they were. We had a good solid D2 conference. The hockey team plays and excels in the best conference in the country. Why not be somewhat comfortable.
I also believe that NDSU moved to get out from UND's shadow. Football is THE sport at NDSU and you were losing that battle to UND for the better part of 10 years and something had to be done.
I do agree that Buning is doing a great job, but I think Kupchella is as well.
This Rabbit appreciates the Star2City reasons, and most make sense. It's nice to see Kuppy choose to make a decision to move up to join your peers. You should have at least one conference (GWFC) awaiting you. In other discussions, the idea of getting UND Swimming & Diving into the Mid-Con has (apparently) been a good track for SDSU toward Mid-Con full sports membership. UND's location, sport interests tend to not mesh well with spring outdoor sports. Therefore, other indoor sports (like LaCrosse) make sense. You will find different conferences than the SU's for those sports, and celebrate those as something different than the SU's. Put your $$ and energies into the sports that will generate $$ for you. Your plan to go to 57 schollies in FB is a great way to quickly generate outside $$'s into UND sports, and ease the transition time. Both NDSU and UC-Davis have been successful with this. And even Southern Utah landed a D-I game for 2006.
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Since the question is "Does Hockey help or hinder our request to get into a conference for other sports? Principally focused on basketball and football (because those are the defining sports for a conference)
In Football, UND's possible conferences are: GWFC (5 members, one less than needed for auto-bid eligibility) nearest member <100 mi away and ex-NCC rival (GEE, this appears to be a slam dunk). The Big Sky - Nine football school, nearest team 700 miles away. No baseball or Swimming & Diving (UND sponsored sports). Gateway 8 members - No apparent interest in expanding at this time., nearest school is 450 mi away.
Basketball - Move up NCC - 13 years of no auto-bid, but all local, assumes at least 6 existing NCC schools move up with UND.
Mid-Con, all sports except hockey and football. Don't believe any of Mid-con schools have hockey. Emphasis is Basketball, and then baseball.
Big Sky, no swim/dive or baseball. No hockey at any of the 9 schools?
MoValley - won't touch a transitional.
Horizon - Mid-West local, (bus trip) and Grand Forks is 500 mi from nearest UW-Green Bay. Some hockey schools, may help.
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Despite record crowds,donations, television money,merchandise sales, and a bowl game, Rutgers has announced we are eliminating six of our thirty Division 1 sports. The upcoming seasons will be the final ones for men's tennis, men's heavyweight crew,men's lightweight crew, women's fencing,men's fencing, and men's swimming and diving. The crew program goes back to the 1860's. The skyrocketing costs of running a Division 1 program seem to have no end in sight. I hope none of the current Sioux teams are eliminated as the university moves toward Division 1 status in all sports.
GO SCARLET KNIGHTS!
GO FIGHTING SIOUX!
D-I requires 14 sports minimum. Rutger's plays Bowl football, translation, 85 men's schollies that need to be off-set by women's sports. Of 6 sports eliminated, 5 are men's sports. Surprised that a "founding" program, Crew is being eliminated.
Personally, I believe that the Sioux should eliminate baseball, softball, and go, as suggested to LaX, both men's and women's, and certainly women's to start. Your thread on here describes why.
Mid-con, about 2011, should be where you end up. GWFC in 2009. Big Sky = Big Tease. Until Sac St, Portland St. Prez publicly support Dakota schools, Big Sky is a Big Dream. Does ANYBODY AT UND truly believe that UND and NDSU won't be in the same conference? Likewise, because they're in such lockstep with each other, I don't foresee a time when NDSU/SDSU aren't in the same conference!
By 2020, the Mid-con is going to become the move up NCC, with a few other schools is my expectations. And it'll take 14 years before I'm proven right or wrong.
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Hopefully when the radio boys have Lennon on tomorrow they will ask him some "tough " questions . I know when they did have Lennon on after we went DI they didn't ask the questions a lot of people wanted to know. Most Sioux fans are still curious about what Lennon thinks about the Northern Iowa game. The media have never talked to him about it. Hopefully the radio boys will ask him if he was " for " the game or "not". Since we are playing the Northern Iowa game what is his gut feeling about what the game will be like. Is this a rebuilding year for our defense or a reloading year. How much has it hurt us with the constant changes in our coaching staff. At what position does he anticipate Chappelle being used at. At the top of the list of questions to ask Dale though is whether he was for the Northern Iowa game or not. Is there any penalty for playing a DIAA game now? If there is a penalty how does it compare to when we had the whole Bison scenerio a couple years ago? What is your gut feeling as to when we will be paying NDSU and SDSU again? In this six year transition what would you anticipate to to be the topughest years to recruit to? Would it be years 1 and 2, or would it be years 3 and 4 ? Go Sioux!!!!
Reading at the Bison & Bunny boards, there is a possibility of getting a game in '07, but that's something that needs to get arranged soon. Both Bison and Bunnies are close to a full slate for '07. Because of the hard feelings between NDSU/UND, I actually think a SDSU/UND is more likely in '07. We have a long rivalry also, just not quite as intense as intrastate flagship games (SDSU's is USD). '08 is likely to be a no play year for either Bison or Bunnies as they try for the I-AA play-offs in their first year of eligibility. The one caviat to that, is if invited to the GWFC for '08, then play. However, as a team that will count as a D-II when playing an I-AA team, may not get invitation that year. Can almost guarantee if any other NCC schools join you on moving up that GWFC won't invite because don't count toward I-AA game count. I-AA team MUST WIN 7 D-I games to make play-off. Cal Poly was denied (woofed) a play-off game in '04 because of their 2 D-II games vs SDSU & NDSU. '09 - playing UND counts as a I-AA team, you're in transition. GAME ON, and welcome to the GWFC!!!!
Your toughest transition years start in '08. No longer D-II, not D-I. Limbo Land
Get with the other transitioning schools that are 1 to 2 yr ahead of you for match ups. Southland, Big Sky, and OVC, Gateway and even SoCon teams (especially Ga Southern) love playing transitional games. A couple of your home games are likely to be D-II games in '08, and look into playing a non-schollie I-AA team that 1st year (home & home?) Drake would be overjoyed to get a game. -
While deep deep down I hope you're right about the Big Sky (it is my first choice as a conference to join), I really really hope even more that you are wrong about your opinion of the Mid-Con, because that is the most realistic place to hope for UND athletics to end up.
Geography seems to be extremlely important to the Big Sky. UND is not in the footprint of the Big Sky. Geography seems to be somewhat less important to the Mid-Con, but it is still important for obvious reasons. NDSU & SDSU admission to the Mid-Con is a huge step in the right direction for UND, becauses it places UND within the Mid-Con footprint.
Joining the Mid-Con-controlled Great West will establish ties to the Mid-Con right away. Another thing that could work in UND's favor in establishing ties with the Mid-Con as soon as we start the transition is swimming & diving. When Valparaiso leaves after 2006-07, that will leave the Mid-Con with only six schools that sponsor the sport. SDSU is already an affiliate member, and NDSU & IPFW do not have swimming & diving. With UND's strong tradition in swimming & diving, the ability to make those two sports playoff eligible in two years rather than five, and close proximity to a current Mid-Con swimming & diving school (SDSU), I feel there would be compelling reasons for the Mid-Con to admit UND as affiliate members in swimming & diving from the get-go.
The two current members left of the Mid-Con that have been most vocal about wanting into a different conferene are Southern Utah & Centenary. If both were to for some reason leave at the same time in the near future, I agree that UND wouldn't be an option because of "core" issues. But I think one of them could go and UND would still be in play because of NDSU & SDSU presence (remember the bigger footprint), and because of GWFC and Swimming & Diving affiliation. If Centenary left first, UND would be a virtual lock IMO, concentrating the bulk of membership in the Upper Midwest.
I don't necessarily feel that a school needs to leave the Mid-Con either before UND gets a look. With no football they could easily have 11, 12, even 13 or 14 schools if they wanted. For a historically unstable conference that has a high rate of turnover (22 members in 25 years), there is something to be said for "strength in numbers". Judging from history though, by 2009-2010 when UND is a DI "counter", I feel that the odds are pretty favorable that the Mid-Con could be looking for members again.
I feel that after looking at past Big Sky expansion patterns, SUU will become a member long before any school from the Dakotas does.
Bin - Copy this and supply to the athletic powers at UND. You are spelling out what is likely a successful path to Mid-Con membership. I, and likely Filbert & 89rabbit, are hoping that the Mid-con gets settled into the upper midwest via S/NDSU, and as the NCC creeps up that there is room made for those "creeps"
.BTW, I think that getting rid of baseball, and enjoying LaCrosse up there fits your hockey image better. Yes, I know that the Mid-con is a baseball strong conference, but all the more reason as a nearly Canadian school to not try to be winning that battle. Enjoy the football dome for another season each year.
Work them books! This Rabbit is looking forward to games/matches in the future vs UND
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So if the membership of the GWFC holds steady and UND joins, it'll have an autobid in UND's second year of post-season eligibility.
Yes
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Pipe Dream
Here's the discussion about potential auto-bid requirements for the GWFC.
http://www.anygivensaturday.com/forum/show...0924&page=3
I'll note that having 6 active member (completely thru transition) + 2 years of those 6 members is the key.
Therefore, UND doesn't help get the conference there, until 2014. NEED an EXISTING ACTIVE D-I school to move to the GWFC. BTW, doesn't even need to currently be playing football. Western IL is one, U of San Diego, Drake, Eastern IL are all examples of schools that fit the need.
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I think that the visits (....invites?) may be a good thing for UND.
Pending invitation, they now have two more yes votes for conference membership.
Even if all members and the potential invitees stay, the Mid-Con will be unstable for the next decade. If one or more schools leave, things could get pretty bumpy. UND would bring its reputation and football team. The geography still sucks; however.
What UND really needs now is a partner for the move.
Actually that vote to visit ONLY IPFW, SDSU & NDSU was a very encouraging sign for UND.
UVSU doesn't complete their transition to D-I until '10. UT-PA's advantage of being a core school right away didn't override the distance issues and support issues to get an invite now. UT-PA's advantage decreases over time.
Effectively, the mid-con is leaving open the expansion to 12 for a future time. EVEN WITH NO DEFECTIONS, there is expansion room. With the 2 DSU's on inside, UND is geographically in the footprint. USD or a MN NCC school would be good for travel partners.
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My crystal ball
shows that IPFW, SDSU, NDSU, UVSU get selected for "visits". UT-PA gets selected for an "assessment" visit.IPFW is selected. In footprint of conference, Core eligible right away. No question in, slam dunk.
NDSU & SDSU - these twins will become the foundation schools on which the next 20 years of the Mid-con will be built. They are strong, land-grant U's, their athletics have been and will continue to be top-tier programs. Only Oral Roberts and Western IL APPROACH the commitment to quality student athletes that these schools bring to the conference.
UVSU - In a quick decisive inclusionary move, Mid-Con shows that we're going to keep SUU in the fold. Select this rapidly evolving school, and anchors in a western element to this conference.
UT-PA - They get a hard look. That auto-bid protection element gets weighed against the distance and competetive abilities that they bring to the table. IMHO, this is a toss-up choice.
UND will benefit IMMENSELY by having NDSU/SDSU on the inside looking at future expansion. This conference has been very transcient in the past. I envision that in 10-15 years, that IPFW or WIU will be the eastern edge, Okla City & Oral Roberts the south, and much of the NCC move-ups will be members, including Northern Colorado. Further, I predict that the power WESTERN I-AA football league will be the GREAT WEST, having overtaken the Big Sky. The GWFC vs. Big Sky is already plus to the GWFC, and that trend will increase as GWFC members reach full schollies. I envision that UND would continue that trend as a GWFC member.
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I kind of get the feeling that UND waiting the extra year for exploratory is to give some other NCC members a chance to look at DI.
There's been some talk about a DI NCC. I understand it's a 13 year wait for auto births. What's the chances of the NCAA granting an exception? Consider, that this is one of the only regions in the country with no close proximity conference for members to join (obviously Big 10/11 is not an option). They are more or less forced to band together. Though with UND in it, I doubt it would happen.
The NCAA going out of their way to HELP the SIOUX? I doubt that will happen. At least until UND are the Flickertails/Rough Riders/Ice Jammers -
However, from a scheduling standpoint that could work.
For football, I expect that NCC move-ups will find a home in the GWFC until it's filled with 9 teams, at 5 now.
In other sports, I expect that the Mid-con, with NDSU/SDSU on the inside, will be picking up ex-NCC schools probably toward end of transition time tho. Allows Mid-con to consolidate in the upper NW midwest.
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No, hockey doesn't count because there is no Division II Championship. So UND can move up one men's sport and one women's sport. And theoretically, UND could add other sports that also have no Division II championship, like Rifle or Women's Bowling.
I believe moving up two sports right now would put some teeth in the current decision and show that UND isn't going to back out of this. I think this is especially important in appealing to conferences, as the current decision actually shows no formal commitment to DI at this time.
This is a great idea. SDSU got into the mid-con swimming and diving. started in 2005/06. With as strong a program as UND has in swimming, may be able to get affilate membership in what, if N/SDSU end up there, should be a desired conference.
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WELCOME SIOUX, LOOK FORWARD TO PLAYING YOU AGAIN!!!!
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NCC
in Other Sports
Cratter -Long term 13 years is nothing, much better than what is currently available for conferences. F'in Midcon is not worth it long term, Big Sky is 50/50.
Let Mid-con select the DSU's, get them thru transition, and become the foundation of the Mid-con, which giving their facilities, size, complete athletic programs relative to the rest of the conference they will become. Starting in '10, major shifts are going to begin in D-I. At that time, opportunities for NCC move-ups will open up.
Start with the NCC to D-I, and in about 5-7 years, Mid-con will become consolidated along I-29/I-80.
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Taking two years ('08/'09) to get to the first year of D-I transition (U of Central Ark in 06, SDSU in 03) would be good for UND and the NCC.
1) Keeps you in compliance with the 18 month NCC process. No penalty.
2) If the NCC is going to move in mass to D-I, then gives the schools an additional year to get their act together, and convince state legislatures that this is happening, and it's good for the schools.
3) UND will come off after 3 years of waffling as being decisive, having a solid plan and vision, and be able to LEAD the NCC forward to D-I.
4) Allows the NCC time to find existing auto-bid conferences that may consider bringing these schools into their conferences, but after much of the transition issues are worked thru.
5) Resolves conference issues.
6) Gives the athletic dept. a year to demo how to make this work financially.
7) Assists UND in determining what sports to look at for D-I. Still think that LaX is best choice for UND, dropping baseball.
8) Gives time to NCC members to make the NCC/NSIC conference a go, and UND gets to focus on reconnecting with _DSU's. And in a timeframe that is much more conducive to all 3 schools. Much conference rearranging is going to happen in '10 at the D-I level.
9) At UND, assists in having all "PLAYERS" come out with a "win". EVERYBODY will know what the successful end product will look like.
10) Helps the fans and alumni the opportunity to demonstrate that they support the move and higher prices for tix and stuff the stadiums/arenas, and possibly pick up a NC or two in D-II in the last two years. Both the Bunnies and Bison succeeded in doing so, and that would be a great send-off.
Downside - Transition adds a year.
I hope that Kupchella declares going D-I, but waiting to '07 for exploratory year. That appears better than rushing into exploratory year in '06.
Best of success Sioux! Can read that this has been a painful journey. Hope the pain of indecision is through soon.
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Sure, SDSU would love to have UND in the Mid Con and Great West.
But if you mention USD tagging along they explode in a fit of rage, citing reports of USD financial problems.
This Rabbit would like to see the NCC mostly move up, together preferred. That includes USD. Their financial situation is not nearly as strong as UND, nor do they have the facilities or size of the other 3 Dakota "Flagship" campuses.
Like UND vs NDSU, there is an intense rivalry. But we'd like the crowds that even divisional play would make.
All I can say is that based on the posts at the Coyote board, there isn't the fervor, numbers or discussion to make it happen on the short term.
TO THE SIOUX - This Rabbit hopes to see you in the GWFC soon, and the Mid-Con in the not too distant future. However, I doubt that it'll happen this year. (To get an invite).
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Their students want it, and it's currently not there for UVSU.
http://www.anygivensaturday.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10817
HMMMM. How can a weak, community college go from JUCO to D-I, then likely add football, and the mighty Sioux have to tie themselves up in knots despite being very successful in D-II?
Come on Sioux! Join your peers!!!!
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NAIA to D-I? Sure we're going!!!!
http://orusports.com/talk/index.php?topic=1450.0
Oklahoma City U going, and Oral Roberts (a current Mid-Con dominant school) is thrilled.
A partner and fellow move-up aspirant to do many sports against during transition?
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Assuming that UND does leap to D-I, AND that they are immediately invited to GWFC action (very likely), then would take over the UNC slot on the schedule. Looking at 04 & 05 UNC schedule, they were on a 4-1 schedule. Hopefully, along with SDSU, this unbalanced schedule gets changed to a 3-2 schedule.
The 4 Away year is the odd years (07/09/11). The 4 home year is even years (06/08/10).
DI scheduling
in NCAA News
Posted
The Big Sky has 9 teams, so the "perfect" 4 home/4 away in conference with 3 OOC games. 1 of those OOC games will be a FBS game away. So really only two games available. If want to have 6 home games (like MT or Mt St) then never actually play "away". The Big Sky, since the addition of UNC, have been reneging on returning the "away" game. Because of that, SDSU/NDSU are saying NO to the Big Sky schools. ONLY IF THE GAMES START in Brookings/Fargo are they going to play Big Sky schools.
Gateway will be at the same 9 teams issue starting in 2008. Southland is at 8 FB schools, with the other 4 schools in the conference looking to add football, so could be in same situations as Big Sky in near future.
In Basketball, with 9 schools, 16 out of 28 (minimum # of D-I games) are in conference. The name of the game is to play RPI's that are high, not low. Also to play BCS conference schools, not the bottom 1/3 of conference ratings. Big Sky is a lower level conference, that rarely gets in more than one school. So for OOC, rarely did SDSU play more than one or two Big Sky teams, while in transition.
SDSU Women's success this year was due to their successes against the top 100. All their 6 losses were to teams in the two post season tourneys. And they had wins against more than just AQ teams in the NCAAs.
I'm certain that we'll see the UNC Bears on both the FB field and hardwood courts. Too much history to not compete again. However, it will be timed for a perceived boost to each school, not because we have to have a game.