informant

Wisconsin.....Montana.....top 25 in DI-AA their first two years in the division.....women's basketball wins over Alabama and Georgetown....and in the past.... Bison National Championships in Football National Championships (Poll) 1965, 1968, 1969 National Championships (Playoff) 1983, 1985, 1986, 1988, 1990 National Championships (Poll) 1965, 1968, 1969 National Championships (Playoff) 1983, 1985, 1986, 1988, 1990 Playoff Appearances 1976, 1977, 1981, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1994, 1995, 1997, 2000 Conference Championships 1925, 1932, 1935, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1972, 1973, 1974, 1976, 1977, 1981, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1988, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1994 Add a few in women's basketball, wrestling, cross country, and track. OK....I'll give the Canadian South Team a few.

Through my experience at SiouxSports.com, I've learned about the sickening level of hatred that this rivalry has turned into. UND fans are jealous as hell of the Bison victory at Wisconsin. And they're jealous as hell of the progress of SU football. And the recruiting has been amazing. UND has been almost completely shut out. This is all about jealousy at UND. I've lost any interest in UND sports. I tried to explain that I was interested in both schools. UND faithfuls want no part of it. Yir either fir or agin. There's no room for debate here. You're a part of it. The move up to DI-AA in Fargo is already a success. Money is no object in Fargo as long as the caliber of play is high. People will fill the Fargodome to watch SU play Montana, Cal Poly, UC Davis, SDSU, Montana State, among others. Fargo is a filthy rich community that will host DI-AA and DI athletics with great success. I doubt that UND and the Grand Forks community is capable. The attitudes here tell the story quite well. I've heard the same attitude from UND fans during my recent visits to Mayville. It has been confirmed here. Mayville people are laughing about beating UND in basketball....and they hope that Glas will get a contract extension. I'm not amused. It's sickening to read the attitudes on this site.

And this is precisely the attitude that I wrote about. The three people that have replied are simply here to have a "feel good" UND site. Your insults mean nothing. They only solidify my beliefs. It's going to be really hard to have any sympathy for UND in the future. And as for jealousy....I'm certainly not jealous. There's nothing to be jealous of. Your attitudes are immature and single-minded. You don't wanna let facts git in the way. And you certainly don't want opinions. You people have been a total waste of my time. After I've read your comments...I don't hate UND, but I can see why SU fans really hate the attitude at UND. YOU people are the jealous ones. You're jealous because SU made the move. You can deny this, but it's obvious. UND plays D3 caliber football. They would have trouble with a strong St. Johns or Concordia team. Keep thinking small. I gave $15,000.00 to UND last year. That's done. It's $30,000.00 to SU next year. I won't be reading your comments...so don't waste your time. Bye Former UND fan and supporter.

I came on this site in an attempt to understand the hatred between the two universities and to explain that I have been a fan of different programs at both schools. But the UND backers on this site will have no part of it. I admit to having a stronger allegiance to NDSU because I've been such a huge fan of Bison football for about four decades...since the Mudra/Erhardt days. That dates me pretty well. It was an amazing ride that deserves to be called a dynasty in D2. I loved watching the Bison. I admit that I've never been much of a hockey fan. Mayville/Portland is a basketball community...to put it mildly. I grew up in that culture...with standing room only crowds at Lewy Lee Fieldhouse for our high school games. Hockey was rarely talked about. But I loved watching UND men's basketball too. This is what I've tried to get across. I am a legitimate UND men's basketball fan. I lived in Brookings, SD in the 90s. When the great UND teams came to Brookings, I was always there cheering for them. UND had a team that should have been in the nationals a few times, but they got a little unlucky. It was unfortunate...and it was upsetting. I was at most of those regional games. I skipped the Bison basketball games most of the time. And I do remember listening to the Phil Jackson teams as a kid on the radio. I was too young to go to the games. I've supported SU's move to DI-AA because I believe that continuing to work within the confines of D2 rules was making it very difficult to rebuild the football program. If the brilliant people at the NCAA were to make a ruling stating that any DI hockey program had to move all of its sports to DI-AA or higher...would there be any debate in the UND community? Or would UND simply move its hockey program down? This hypothetical question was asked in an earlier posting of mine....but I didn't receive any straight answers. Is there a UND hockey fan that would care to give a straight, simple answer to this question? Or are all of you content to just get in my face about it? NDSU's traditional program is football. Admittedly, there was a dip in the quality of play at SU after their last national championship in the early 90s. The cycle turned toward UND. The rivalry has gone through several cycles. That's one of the big reasons why the rivalry became so intense. It shifted back and forth. Prior to the Erhardt days...UND pounded on NDSU for a long time. In the 60s the cycle changed. It was somewhat neutral in the 70s...with one UND championship mixed in there. The 80s belonged to NDSU, with some really amazing teams. Then, after 1991, it began to shift toward UND. But NDSU views its football program much the same as UND views its hockey. The leadership and backers at SU wanted to bring up the caliber of play again. They didn't see it happening as easily in D2 because of scholarship limitations. I ask this question also: Try to imagine, for a moment, that you were a Bison football fan, and that you had experienced what I call the dynasty years of the 60s and 80s. How would you be feeling if the program dropped to total mediocrity? Would you call for dramatic changes? And would you be content to wait around for other schools to make bold moves while the program is crumbling? Several UND faithful have written that NDSU's move up was strictly to get in UND's face. That might be true to an extent. But there is another huge factor that is being missed. Since St. Cloud and Mankato entered the mix...it has been more difficult to lure some of the better players that weren't quite up to DI standards away from the Twin Cities. I see the entrance of Crookston, Mary (Bismarck), Moorhead, Southwest State, Bemidji, and other smaller schools into D2 as a definitive sign that the complexion of D2 has changed entirely. Blue-chip D2 athletes from the Twin Cities area began to see St. Cloud and Mankato as an opportunity to stay closer to home and still play a decent brand of football. Recruiting those kids up to North Dakota became more difficult. UND has had some strong coaching and good recruiting in recent years. I don't begrudge UND for being proud of its recent successes. That's been a part of the cycle change. The new coaching staff at SU came, in part, because of the DI-AA status. Some really poor leadership and coaching entered the mix at NDSU in the late 80s and 90s. That's the way it goes. It is my opinion that NDSU has not abandoned D2 or the NCC. Rather...D2 has abandoned stronger programs like NDSU, UND, Pittsburg St., Northern Colorado....etc. I won't list them here...but many of NDSU's past playoff rivals have made the move up to DI-AA. As far as I'm concerned, SU (and perhaps UND) should have made the move in the early 90s when the programs were still really strong. Entzion, the AD at the time, was too busy hanging out at parks and falling asleep at the wheel...literally and figuratively. It was an embarrassment. They were difficult times. Some really poor decisions were made about allowing players to play even with some very bad behavior...to put it mildly. This hurt the image of the program and the chemistry of the winning tradition. Again...the leadership at SU saw a need to jolt the program, or give it a strong transfusion. I agreed with the move for the above reasons. No, it's not fair that NDSU moved up without UND. But I argue this point. UND has had its DI hockey program in the national spotlight for decades. I'm not jealous about it. I admire it. I don't want NDSU to have DI hockey. I want to support UND's program. I see no need to double up those programs and to fight for the top recruits in the region. Rather...I want to see NDSU football playing a very high caliber of football again. No....there is not a huge difference between D2's stronger programs and DI-AA's programs. And we saw UC Davis defeat Stanford at home this past fall. Granted...Stanford had a down year, but they did manage to win a few conference games after pulling it together some. The difference, as I see it, between D2 and DI-AA is depth and some speed on many of the teams. Perhaps UND is an exception. I don't know. Perhaps the same could be said for Pittsburgh St. and a few of the stronger D2 programs. But on the average, DI-AA is stronger. I have traveled to UC Davis, Cal Poly SLO, and Southern Utah to watch the Bison in the past two years. The change in the Bison team is remarkable. They are becoming bigger, faster, quicker, and deeper. It can't be denied. The caliber of play has definitely gone up. I can't compare it to UND. But I "can" compare it to SU teams of the last 5 to 10 years. And there is no comparison. The caliber of play is way up. If UND wants to stay in D2 and be a dominant force...I have no problem with it. If they move up...I have no problem either. Each to his own. Rather than get in my face about being an imposter and a troller....maybe some of you could cut me a little slack...and even consider discussing these issues more neutrally. But maybe this isn't the place to do it. I will say that living in Southern California has changed my perspective. From down here, North Dakota gets little to no attention. UND hockey gets some, but hockey isn't exactly a big deal to most people down here. I have gone to the Frozen Four to watch the Sioux....and cheered wildly. I've even worn Sioux green to the games. Perhaps my earlier postings got too emotional and some of my replies were too harsh. That's not what I came here for. I came here to declare that it is possible to be for "both" schools, and that I would like to see the hatred ease off. I will be going to Bisonville.com to communicate some of these same feelings and beliefs. Finally....I think that both schools and communities have acted immaturely. The blame game is counterproductive....and frankly....stupid. No one will win this game. Finally...I think that a cooling off period is needed if the two schools were to compete again. And I apologize to UND if NDSU should have waited for UND to consider the move up....but you need to understand just how desperate us Bison football fans were to get some high-caliber football back in Fargo. Bison fans enjoyed the win at Madison. It was a huge surprise. It pumped some energy into people's attitudes. If SU is to survive the move....this kind of thing is crucial once in a while. Yes...a conference is needed.....but I present the chicken or the egg theory. Yes....having a conference lined up would have been better....but football found a temporary conference. The other sports have suffered because of all of the travel....no doubt. The pissing contest can't be won. So why not try to find even a little piece of middle ground? I'm finished posting on this site. My message has been stated. You can blast me all that you want. I came here to try to understand....and to state an opinion. It appears that I've failed....and I've been lured into the emotionalism of this unhealthy rivalry. It's like a damn civil war....over athletics. It's gotten way too serious. Both schools have bragging rights in many areas....including academics. That's enough. I'll read some of your comments...but I'm likely done posting or responding here. It appears that my outlook doesn't fit in. This is a purely UND discussion board with no room for people that are not totally faithful UND fans....much like bisonville.com. Grand Forks and Fargo are two great communities. North Dakota is a great state with a small population. The people don't need to be polarized and full of hatred. It's not a healthy rivalry at this time. It is sad. I'm a jock...but this thing has become far too important....over sports.

The love toward UND is well earned. Frankly...I don't understand why anyone that is totally in the Bison camp gives a rip about Sioux athletics because it's a blip on the SU screen. I find some of the discussions here to be amusing. It's kind of like watching fox....the bush war channel.

60s, 70s, 80s, and early 90s.....the best D2 football program in history....with a few cycles of ups and downs. Be proud of UND. That's fine. You can be proud of UND beating up on Crookston, Southwest State, St. Cloud.....etc. When SU played Moorhead State it was an embarrassment. That's what UND is doing. UND football hasn't risen. D2 has lowered itself and most of the big programs have left. UND can enjoy being a big fish in a small pond. I have no problem with that. Maybe in the future UND should do a home & home with Minot, or maybe Mayville State? It would save money. Think about it.

What you mean is "why didn't SU stick around and wait for UND?" Apparently, UND backers feel that the level of play between DI-AA and DII isn't all that different....so why did UND cancel all of the games? You've got it a little backwards. UND pulled out. I could care less at this point.

If you don't get it....that's OK. Maybe you practice playing stupid.

Your points are well taken. I have seen NDSU football consistently. I saw them in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, and lately I've driven up the coast to watch them at UC Davis, Cal Poly...and even went to Southern Utah. The progress has been amazing. The level of play has risen sharply. You're right...I haven't seen UND in person lately. I shouldn't compare them to D3. SU fans are split about Rocky. Maybe he wasn't your kind of coach...but I suspect that working under Bob Entzion wasn't exactly comforting. Rocky took the hit for whatever happened there. That can't be denied. I say that it's too late for D2. It's gone. Most of the really strong programs have moved up. Many of NDSU's past playoff opponents have made the move. Troy State went DI. The recruits are gravitating toward Fargo now. If you were any good, it's too bad that you didn't have the experience of playing in a Bison uniform. Yeah....the tradition involves history. Bison fans want the quality back. And it is coming back. I "have" seen that in person. If UND Hockey went down....coaches would be fired and all hell would break loose. UND fans would want the "history" back.

Hi, I think that I wrote about inappropriate hatred and a lack of class at both schools. I have read many, many articles and postings on this site about whether UND should move up or not. I know some SU fans that could really care less what happens at UND. They're not angry. They just don't care. I fall somewhere in the middle...as I tried to explain. A lot of people agree with me about the caliber of football. The roster is filling out with size, speed, and talent. SU is grabbing some out-state talent that wouldn't have come north without the DI-AA label. And I've noticed that a majority of the bigger talent in the Dakotas are gravitating to Fargo and the chance to play DI-AA football. I do detect a problem in the UND community. If you're interested in a pissing contest.....then I'd say that UND has had something to do with the problem. Cancelling all competitions with SU was pretty low-class. But as far as I'm concerned, they shouldn't play for quite a while. UND can play Crookston, Southwest State, and other big programs. It's really not a problem. For me...I'd rather watch SU play Montana, Montana State, UC Davis, Cal Poly SLO, Southern Utah...and soon...Minnesota. Win or lose, it's just more interesting. It beats the hell out of the old days of playing Morningside, Augustana, St. Cloud, Mankato, etc. Basketball the flagship program at NDSU? Really? Bison football is light years ahead in that category. Through the 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s....on the average....it was the most successful DII program in the country. Over the span of time....NDSU was the most dominant team in the history of the division. On the UND side, the men's basketball has been dominant. And the hockey is a huge deal. I support it. I even toured the Ralph with some pride last summer....even though it was built with Vegas mafia money. Whatever. If you want to lay the blame on NDSU totally....you are misguided. I'd say it's an even split. I'm trying to say that I've been a fan of both schools. But you don't want me to go there....do you? I'm not your typical Bison fan. I have cheered for both over the years.

I'll visit the site. Are you saying that I should post it? That's what I'm assuming. I've written this type of letter to the Fargo Forum....and it was published. I know that SU people can be obnoxious. But it's no different in Grand Forks. There's an arrogant pride at both schools. But it's gone beyond a rivalry. It's not healthy. For the time being...I see no need for the two schools to play each other. The hatred has gotten way out of hand. Sioux country needs to solve its own problems and not worry about what's happening in Fargo. Until things calm down in Grand Forks, I won't have much real interest in UND. Either accept the DII status...or find the money and make the move.

Let me introduce myself in terms of my background. Although I have written a few replies since joining this forum, I would like people to know a little bit about me. I grew up in Mayville and went to high school there just before it became May-Port. I played on a great Mayville basketball team that was upset by Hillsboro in the district tournament. They were our nemesis. Beyer was a genius. We also had the misfortune of having to play Northwood the year before that...when Doug Hanson dominated the Red River Valley Conference. That was an outstanding team that deserved to win. Does anyone remember when getting through the district tournament was a really big deal? We had Hillsboro, Portland, and Northwood to contend with at every district tournament. All three were loaded with talent, and all three had great coaches. Those tournaments were like a small state tournament. Lew Lee was standing room only with an atmosphere that you could cut with a knife. I grew up listening to UND basketball on the radio as early as the Phil Jackson years. I idolized those guys. I went to almost every Comets game as a kid. There were many great athletes that played ball at the old MSC. Doug Eiken was the best. He was a four-sport athlete. He's one of the best athletes that I've ever seen. He would have been a star at UND or NDSU. He was about 6' 5"....215....and could run like a deer. Doug grew up in Portland and decided to stay at home to play for the Comets. He shattered his shoulder playing centerfield for the Yankee's AAA farm club, and that ended a potentially bright future in the major leagues. Forgive me if I've been inaccurate in some of my details. You know...time has a way of blurring the facts. Two members of my family went to NDSU in the 60s and 70s. I became enthralled by the Bison football dynasty. Couldn't help it. I loved watching those teams. UND had some really great teams then too...but mostly...the Bison had the edge. Football was at a DI level at both universities. The only real difference was depth and some speed at a few key positions. I played ball with Mark Walker...the "other" running back on UND's championship team. Mark was a truly great athlete. He mostly blocked for Ciche. I cheered for them too. In the 90s I went to many UND basketball games when Guldseth was playing...among other great players. I watched the NDSU and UND women battle it out many times. They were great. I watched the demise of the Bison football program in the 90s under the poor leadership of Bob Entzion. I believe that Rocky Hager was the scapegoat for a much bigger problem. I couldn't believe how the smaller schools gained control of DII in terms of voting to lower scholarships. It's my opinion that both schools should have moved up in the early to mid 90s. I respect UND for its recent successes in football, and other sports. But I respectfully say that the caliber of play in DII football has dropped rather dramatically. I've watched a few of UND's playoff games on TV...and those teams were really good. But they are a shadow of past teams...either at UND or at NDSU. It's the caliber of play...and players. I went to Concordia College...and frankly...DII (even in the playoffs)...reminds me of old Cobber teams, and teams like St. Johns. They were good, but the rosters were spotty. That...to me...is what UND looks like now. That's how I saw NDSU in the past decade or so. Good teams....but not even close to the old dynasty days. I'm upset that the two universities are fighting each other. I've always respected both schools. UND Hockey....the flagship program at UND....should be a source of pride for the entire state. The remarkable accomplishments of the NDSU football program should be a source of pride for the whole state. The accomplishments in women's basketball at both schools should be a source of pride for the whole state. NDSU wrestling should be a source of pride for the whole state. I do not believe that NDSU should enter the hockey arena. I think that UND should be "the program" in North Dakota. I also believe that any resentment toward NDSU's move to DI-AA is misguided. Why would anyone blame SU for wanting to bring back a high caliber of football when it had become accustomed to playing at a much higher level? I understand the misgivings about the problem of having to move the entire sports program to DI. It is a huge challenge for NDSU and SDSU. They both need a conference badly, but NDSU needed to get it going before the football program dropped any more. For me, it had less to do with wins and losses (even to UND) than the desire to bring the caliber of play back up. I ask this question for UND Hockey fans: If the ncaa, in its great wisdom, made a ruling that required the university to bring all of its sports programs up to DI in order to keep its hockey program at that level...would there be any doubt as to the answer? The move up would happen immediately. Hockey is UND's flagship program. In effect...that is what NDSU was faced with. Its flagship program was going down. It needed a major shakeup....and a move up. NDSU was accustomed to going into Wisconsin and the Twin Cities to find blue-chip athletes to comliment its North Dakota recruits. In 1984 there were 21 North Dakota kids on the NDSU football roster. In the fall of 2005, there were 21 also. My numbers may be off slightly...but a short look at the UND Hockey roster showed 5 North Dakota kids on the hockey roster in 2004-2005. And I'm sorry...but Sioux Hockey has had more than a few Canadians on its roster through the years. So the argument about North Dakota kids in the flagship programs at either school is historically moot. UND is capable of moving up to DI-AA in all of its sports. I would support the move. But what I don't support is the low-class attitudes coming from both universities in this dark age of the rivalry. I live in Southern California now. I enjoy watching NDSU scores scrolling across the espn screen on game days. It's the most exposure that the state has had in the broader sense. And the win at Wisconsin "was" huge. No one at NDSU believes that they could play in a conference like the Big Ten year by year. The win in Madison was a Miracle on Hardwood for NDSU. It likely won't happen again for a while. Someone on this site mentioned Chaminade and how it has disappeared since their big upset of Virginia in the Ralph Sampson days. The point is well taken; however, I would like to balance the argument by mentioning a much smaller school that has done rather well in the big arena... ....Gonzaga. A lot of people in California don't even know for sure where North Dakota is. The bitter arguments seem petty from down here. I'd welcome seeing UND "and" NDSU scores on espn. I'd also welcome a conference with NDSU, UND, SDSU, and a few other programs in the midwest. But please folks.....you should try to back off of the bitterness. I wouldn't blame UND for protecting its great hockey program. I don't blame NDSU for wanting to return to greatness in football. UND Hockey fans are accustomed to a great caliber of hockey. NDSU football fans are accustomed to a great caliber of football. It's about quality folks. North Dakotans should support "quality" at both schools...and get a life as far as the fighting. No one outside of North Dakota cares.....at all....nor do they notice. But they do notice things like UND in the Frozen Four and NDSU upsetting Wisconsin. Sorry for the rambling....but I am really getting tired of this debate. If UND wants to stay at DII...so be it. NDSU made the move. So be it. Let it go. UND either moves up.....or it doesn't. But leave NDSU's decision out of the mix. I'm pretty sure that the leadership at NDSU, from the president on down, have lost their share of sleep over the decision. The win at Wisconsin was a nice reward for the people that have taken the hits for making the move. None of them, I'm sure, believe that this upset has established the DI program. It's just one feather in the cap. But I will say...after driving up to see NDSU play at Cal Poly (along the beach) and at UC Davis...I've seen some pretty amazing football. Playing at those beautiful schools is like a bowl game in a beautiful setting. And it's only going to get better. I went to the Frozen Four in Anaheim a while back. That wasn't too shabby either. If there is blame to be handed out....if there is anger that is appropriate....it should be directed at the ncaa for allowing the demise of DII. That's where the problem started. The DII that many of us loved so much is gone. The Bison have just returned home with their football program. It was a no-brainer for the leadership at NDSU. It had to be done. UND fans. Deal with "your" dilemma. And it "is" a dilemma. And it "is" understandable. I look forward to the day when the rivalry returns to a more normal form of hatred. The current environment isn't healthy for anyone.

Hi, DI hockey shouldn't be doubled in North Dakota. And as for respect, did you respect the Bison when they had their great dynasty football teams in the 60s, 80s, and early 90s? Don't answer. I already know.

I agree. All of the heat that SU took for taking the leap has been painful. This win was good medicine for the entire Bison community...the players...the fans...the coaches...the AD...the president of SU...and the big money backers. I live in Southern California...and it's fun to watch the cable channels and actually see Bison scores roll across the screen along with all of the big programs. I grew up as a Sioux basketball/hockey fan, dating back to Phil Jackson days. I also grew up watching the Bison football dynasty over about 4 decades. It hurt to see the football dynasty slowly melt away. DII has dropped a lot over-all. The football reminds me of watching the Cobbers play when I went to school there. A few really good players with a bunch of decent players. Even the playoff teams look pretty average. It is a shame that the ncaa allowed so many small schools to enter DII, and to vote to water down the scholarships. But here we are. The road to survival and consistency in DI-AA appears to be long...but SU has taken some big steps forward. I wish that people in North Dakota could be huge Sioux Hockey fans and be the same for Bison football, each being the flagship programs at their perspective schools. It was truly amazing to be watching CBS last Saturday when they brought up the big upset in Madison. They had the full Bison logo and North Dakota St. written so that people knew that it wasn't Notre Dame or some other school. I look for the Bison to challenge for the Great West football title next year, barring a whole lot of injuries. That league has already proven to be a challenge for conferences like the Big Sky. UC-Davis beating Stanford at home last fall was another indicator of the level of play. And Stanford ended up winning a few games in the PAC-10. And as for no bowl games for a few more years...the fact is that going to UC Davis, Cal Poly San Luis Obispo (on the beach), Southern Utah, and other road games are so beautiful that it seems like having about 3 or 4 bowl games every year. I do have a question for die-hard Sioux fans. If the ncaa, in all its wisdom, made a ruling that a school had to have all of its programs at the same level...would UND allow its hockey program to go down to a lower level? Or would it move up? I think that we all know the answer. UND would save its flagship. SU had some really poor leadership when Entzion was there. He allowed the Bison dynasty to go down with the DII ship. They should have made the jump then. The move up to DI-AA is merely a return home for Bison football. People in Fargo just want to see a very high caliber of football. They were used to watching a DI caliber football team. They're turning the corner pretty quickly, and the real fans are coming back. The flagship is returning in Fargo. But the win in Wisconsin was.......HUGE. It should go down as one of the greatest games in the history of North Dakota athletics. Wisconsin wouldn't have recruited one of SU's players. Miles pulled off a Miracle on Hardwood. I wouldn't want UND to mess up its great hockey tradition. I want both schools to have great things. I also want the wars to stop. UND could make the transition if the desire were there. It's their decision. SU did what it had to do. SDSU, NDSU, and UND would make a strong hub for a new conference in DI-AA.