ND Pride

I see civility has taken another turn for the downside. Interesting the kind of attitudes we see revealed here. Those darn security people - why did they go and do that anyway. Maybe because they were among the vast majority of Grand Forks people who appreciate the right of a ticket paying customer to see a game.

The state did it that way at one time, not sure when they changed it. In 1995 they had a North/South format. Someone with a stronger grasp of the history could explain it better but my understanding is that the west teams wanted it changed so they could get more representation at state. Someone will have to correct me on this but it was done differently (south/north) and then changed to the present format.

Actually, you might be surprised at the lack of disappointment next year and here is why. Nearly all of the 1988 birthyear kids are friends and most of them are juniors. These kids have played selects together and many of them (Grand Forks kids, Minot, Grafton, North and South Fargo, Bismarck) have played nearly 100 games as team mates - one hundred that is not a typo. They went to bantam nationals together and went to the championship game only to lose in the final minutes. I think these kids would cheer one another when the Mr. Hockey candidate is announced - these kids have been functioning more as team mates than competitors. That is one of the great things about the USA Hockey Select program and the new Elite program. It breaks down that east/west thinking - north/south - Grand Forks vs Fargo vs Minot vs Bismarck vs whatever. You are right there are many quality kids who are high school juniors but when the award is announced many kids will celebrate together because of the friendships they have made over the years.

Haas, dear buddy, the final three candidates were posted on Bob Gillen's site for high school hockey. The three finalists are Aide, Bair and Marto. The award goes to the top senior. Those are not choices that I am giving, I just gave my analysis of the names that the North Dakota coaches have narrowed down to three finalists. One of those three kids will be Mr. Hockey. If I was looking for players I think there are some juniors that would fit in there if the award was open to non-seniors. Paul Campbell and his cousin Thomas Campbell are juniors. Paul Weisgarber is also a junior. Anyway, an analysis of the junior class could take a bit of time and I don't want to slight anyone because there are a lot of excellent junior players.

I don't think people critique someone because they are well-known in some circles. I have had many people ask me who that guy was. I think people critique refs when they do a poor job not because they are well known. One of the sad things about this is what you point out, some of these people have done a lot for the game in other ways. I know some refs whose time has past but they are still officiating the game and they too have done good things for the game by serving on boards, fund-raising and so forth. That is probably one of the things that makes it difficult to move them out. I have names of refs from various parts of the state but I see little point in blasting them here behind the shield of a screen name. GOOD LUCK TO ALL KIDS WHO PLAY THE GAME - PLAY YOUR BEST.

Well, the award is voted on by the coaches so I would start by trying to figure out how they would assess the relative merits of Aide vs Bair vs Marto. I am not sure how the voting goes in terms of a ranking system (each coach rates each player 1, 2 and 3 then votes totaled with points for places) or simply list your choice. I would guess Marto would get it because few eastern coaches have seen Bair. Aide has been around on select teams and so forth so he is a known quantity but I would guess that two west candidates could hurt their voting pool thus resulting in an east player elected. It really comes down to what the eastern coaches, as a group, think of Jake Marto in my view. The three finalists as selected by the coaches are Charlie Bair, Sam Aide and Jake Marto. That list is on the home page of the North Dakota High School Stat Page hosted by Bob Gillen.

Jloos, thanks for sharing that. I think people need to focus on the issue of the quality of the officiating and separate out the teams that are playing in that specific game. As you indicated, any team could theoretically get the shaft. There are refs in other communities too who are hell on wheels (skates) for the teams in their own town. I think the Grand Forks people should stop being so defensive about this and look at the issue of quality of officiating.

I don't think that a forum such as this is the way to go on such an issue. There are refs who know who works well and who does not. Maybe they should rate one another in a confidential forum. Maybe the coaches could do the same. The one or two at the bottom could be dropped out. Ideally, there would be evaluators who watch refs. USA Hockey does this at some of their events. The key is to not reinvent the wheel. Look at other states or districts and see what they are doing. Above all, move forward with some progressive system. Mentioning people by name is not particularly good in a public forum like this if negativity surfaces. In addition, I doubt that most people know the names of all of the refs so using a forum like this would produce a very limited response. Solicit info in a formal professional manner. Again, North Dakota needs a hockey summit or some sort of conference to help improve the game such as the addition of 17 minute periods that started this year. Does North Dakota have any visionary people like the late Herb Brooks? People that can come up with ideas and solutions that improve the environment of hockey in the state. I know the select program and elite hockey programs are efforts in that direction.

I tip my hat to the officials who take the time to make games possible for the kids. It is usually a thankless job and one that does not provide much compensation with the main reward being giving back to the game. That said, as I indicated before there are some who need to move on to other pursuits for the good of the game. I agree the post season events normally have the best refs. There were many very good ones at EDC from every community represented. As you said, "But there are some exceptions and some 'not so good' officials that get selected for the games." You also indicate, "However, I do not know of any official that would ever decide a game." Hmmm, part of their job is to monitor the game so that no one gets an unfair advantage by violating the rules - so in that sense it is their duty to have an impact on the game. If you mean that you know no official who would give the game to another team then that makes little sense. Even if a person is biased the team getting the advantage still has to capitalize on that advantage. You can create an unfair environment through slanted officiating but bottom line the team getting the advantage still has to use it. Your cheap shot on players being immature is not well taken. I did not hear player complaints - but that does not mean there were none. I did hear refs in the stands who watched the game, parents across the EDC that were floored at the calls in one particlular game. Calls - plural. Read the posts on this thread and get a sense for the broad range of concerns. We are not talking about several refs in the game - just one, not one call but many calls, not players complaining but hockey fans across the board - including fans from both teams. Officials are human and make mistakes - that is to be expected. I have written a handout for parents to try and get them to understand the difficulty and nature of work that refs do. Perfection rarely exists because refs do not have the vantage point of fans - they do the best that they can given their line of vision - sometimes they see things fans do not see and sometimes fans have a better view. We all have to live with that. However, my support to refs aside, this situation went too far. I believe that NDHAA would get rid of a clearly bad official. We had a situation many years ago however, where it was nearly impossible to get rid of an older ref who would swear at players during games at the younger age groups. The guy was at the more experienced end of the continuum - it was incredibly difficult to move him out. Also, try and prove bias - it has to be consistenty blatant and clearly negligent to be noticed by higher officials who are rarely at games. On the topic of non-biased goal judges - get a league policy and have them changed. If that is a problem step up and do something about it if it really bothers you. Also, the theme of the ref issue on this thread has not been "Somehow this one penalty made us lose" The issue here is consistent poor officiating by a ref (singular). If it was a one call issue I would agree with you - get over with it and move on with your life. The key here is to improve the system and not repeat the traditional old defensive statements about the system - call the players immature and the parents whatever. There is a problem here and it is time to face it and improve.

I have to agree with you - there is no conspiracy - just an occasional ref who makes a bad call or bad calls. Every community has great refs, average refs, and unfortunately some who are not up to par. Lets move those at the lower end out. Actually, the number of refs from various communities does not change the fact that you can have a ref from one of those communities who does not function at the level expected for a tournament.

Well, if those in hockey administration care about the game they need to have the best officials possible for regional and state tournaments. Procedures should be initiated to make sure that happens. In addition, hometown refs should not ref their own teams in high school tourney play to eliminate the perception of possible bias as well as the possibility of actual conscious or unconscious bias.

I find it really funny that you people can find a way to blame the refs for every game that your team loses. That really shows how much you know about hockey! Second, I know Laduceur and he is a real good guy, just because he acknowledged sombody at a game doesnt mean he is not "into the game". All of you guys should look at the games your teams are losing and realize maybe it is somthing they are doing wrong rather than being a coward and blaming it all on the refs. Last thing is all you guys are whining because the refs supposedly wanted RR to beat north in EDC and your saying they called all these penalties on North which lost them the game, the wierd thing about that is that RR only scored one power play goal which would mean the game woulda been tied up and giving RR all the momentum going into OT, it woulda ended the same way as it did. so find somthing to worth while to whine about! <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

With the Fall Elite I and Elite II league teams that combine North Dakota and Minnesota players there is less of a reason to leave for juniors than in the past due to the developmental opportunity that it offers. Still it is hard for the Minot kids to get to the games in the twin cities and Minnesota locations. South and North have a couple of forwards that could be junior "A" material too, not to mention the Campbell's of Grafton.

The GFC and GFRR teams for next year are tough to project. One thing to keep in mind is coaching. The Grand Forks coaches do a good job. If you have watched the progress of those two teams from the Jamboree onwards you have to respect the coaching staff. I am sure they will do a good job developing the talent that they have as good coaches everywhere do. The Grand Forks pipeline is normally well stocked. Check the records of their bantam teams on the NDAHA site and that should give some indication of the future. Clearly, though, South, Minot and Grafton are going to be tough as nails next year.

Nick Krebsbach left Minot for Red River and was there at the same time as Danny Irmen. Maybe what North Dakota needs is some sort of "Hockey Summit" where the best minds in the local game, and some regional consultants get together and examine how we can improve the development of this great sport in our home state. Minnesota has had some activities in that direction. Maybe the administration of North Dakota Amateur Hockey Association and the staff with the North Dakota Select and Elite programs could work on this.

Well, Cory Loos left North High to play at Moorhead - basically the same idea as going to juniors - getting into a top developmental program. John Halstensen went to the FM Jets this year and Elliot Okland, the goalie with the top save % in the USA Hockey National Select Festival went to the F/M Jets and passed up his last two years at North. Two other players left North for Moorhead believing that the developmental grass was greener. And of course the greatest move of all, Danny Irmen playing for North and then going to Red River - again not juniors but moving up to a program with a great tradition. There are other stories like this if you want to do the research on it. You did take this thread on a tangent but maybe this is helpful. Bismarck Century lost a top defenseman to Shattuck St. Mary's a couple of years ago. Really, the issue here, at least in the last few exchanges, is how the quality of refs impacts fair outcomes. I think there is a problem. I want to see North Dakota hockey thrive in Bismarck, Grafton, Grand Forks, Jamestown, Mandan, West Fargo etc etc, everywhere. Let's focus on doing the best for hockey and not worry so much about what town is the best this year. Good coaching, good referees, developmental programs, etc are all part of it. Let's develop the players we have and feed as many as we can to the D-I progams - UND and wherever they are wanted.

I had several people from different schools - pushing that idea after the North/RR game. Interesting that the strongest proponents came from people not having kids in that game. The group includes some people who are heavily involved in North Dakota hockey. I wonder what the best logistics for this would be?

Jloos - someday I would be interested in hearing your tirade - but not on this site. If you were not there you missed a great game and the championship as well. The theme I have been hearing from various people across the EDC is that we need a better system for refs. It is a tough job and you take abuse but we need more quality young people from all over giving back to the game in that way. Maybe the North Dakota High School Activities Association needs to see some sort of proposal for ref teams in Regional and State competiton.

That's easy to explain. Some refs are not biased, they just make bad calls from time to time regardless of their geographic relation to the home team. In short, sometimes they make bad calls against teams from their own area. It is the nature of being a ref - those goal situations are sometimes especially difficult as the ref may only have a partial view of the situation.

You mean Randy Schmitt? I am not sure.