sauce
-
Posts
11 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Posts posted by sauce
-
-
(Was going to call the big classes bulges, but I didn't want to title a thread: comparing the bulges.)
Kermit had this insightful post in the Murray thread:
------------------------
The Sioux were a decent team in 2001-2, and they weren't far from being a very good team. Several of the freshmen had very good years. Bochenski and Schneider were outstanding. Schneider, Jones, and Fuher ranked 2,3, and 4 on the team among d-men in plus/minus. The team had some excellent goal scorers (Bayda, Skarperud, Bochenski), but lacked a great playmaking center. The biggest problem was in goal where Andy Kollar had a very disappointing year. I also thought that the senior defensemen (Mazurak and Schneekloth) regressed that year.
The next group of incoming freshmen has at least as much talent, but much less experience than the 01-02 group. Chris Fournier played FOUR years in the USHL, Brian Canady 3, Andy Schneider 2+, Nick Fuher 2, James Massen 2, etc. Maybe that explains why some of these guys didn't improve as much AFTER coming to UND.
------------------------
This got me thinking about taking a closer look at the two classes. Here are comparisons of the players' ages (The age shown is the player's age on September 1st of the year they entered school.):
Forwards:
21.1 Canady
20.5 Faul
19.6 Connelly
19.6 Massen
19.6 McMahon
19.4 Bochenski
19.4 Fournier
19.9 AVERAGE
20.5 Martens
20.1 Duncan
19.6 Miller
19.2 Kozek
18.8 Watkins
18.7 Oshie
17.3 Toews
19.2 AVERAGE
The difference in the average age works out to about 8.5 months, which is pretty significant. A more telling observation is that four players in the 2005 class would be the youngest player in the 2001 class.
Defense:
20.5 Fuher
20.1 Schneider
18.1 Jones
19.5 AVERAGE
20.7 Alexander
18.6 Jones
18.4 Lee
18.3 Chorney
19.0 AVERAGE
Although the difference in the average is only six months, it's pretty clear that the 2001 class had two seasoned players and one relative pup, while the 2005 class has three pups and one older player.
Overall, I agree that the 2005 class has perhaps greater potential than the 2001 class, but it might not be realized in the first year, due to the relative youth and inexperience of the 2005 players.
As to the quality of the team the classes are moving into, Kermit nailed the comparison. In 2001-02 both Bayda and Skarperud finished in the top five in WCHA scoring. In addition, very solid and dependable forwards like Lundbohm, Notermann and Spiewak were present. The current returning group (knock on wood) of Zajac, Stafford, Spirko, Prpich, Porter and Fabian compares favorably, but it's close.
On defense, Schneekloth, Mazurak, Hale and Leinweber returned. The preseason view was that this was a solid base to work in three newcomers. It didn't work out that way, as Hale's health issues and Schneekloth's and Mazurak's spotty seasons forced a baptism by fire for the freshmen. As trying as that was, the returning group in 2005 is even more questionable. (I personally expect the NHL to fix its issues, with Greene pursuing his career, and Bina to be unavailable this year.) That would mean the returning players would be Smaby (a rock), Radke (not far from a freshman himself) and Marvin and Foyt (more forwards now than defensemen). This time around, we know the kids will be required to play significant roles. Unfortunately, they'll all be just 18, rather than 20 as Schneider and Fuher were. Fortunately, they might ultimately be more talented overall.
The big difference, as Kermit noted, is that UND has two very capable goaltenders for 2005, which should help alleviate the main problem with the team in 2001-02.
The last point of comparison for me is that the league overall seems much tougher in 2005 than 2001. CC, Denver, MN and Wisconsin all look very tough, with all the lower tier teams (save perhaps SCSU) seemingly able to beat anyone on any weekend as well.
The coaching staff has a big, big job ahead of it next year. It will be frustrating at times, but also fun to watch the potential.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think that's a really good assessment. Hopefully Bina can make it back. I knew that kid growing up and let me tell you something - if there is anyone I know who can fight back from something like this, its Robbie!
One thing to add is that its all guessing at this point. I mean going into that 2001 season, who'd have thought Kollar would have a bad year. He was so solid in years past, guess you just never can tell. Your final statement sums it up well:
The coaching staff has a big, big job ahead of it next year. It will be frustrating at times, but also fun to watch the potential.
I'm glad they're scooping these guys up while they're young; can't wait till Marto arrives
-
On that big run by Strouth-- Anderson, Ullsberger, Gagner, Brandsted and Hoffschneider were all on the sidelines (and those were just the starters I noticed). The two inside linebackers on that play (Meek and Schmitz) really got swallowed up by Kuper and the boys up front. I think Digger and Ullsberger might have fared a little better.
The coaching staff wanted to keep the star guys healthy, especially on defense it seemed. So although they say it was the #1 offense against the #1 defense, in reality many of the top defensive players weren't on the field that often.
More impressions from me later....
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The Herald claimed that the coaches are calling this one of our best defenses in history. Now that's saying something! The last time I checked, a solid defense and a good running game are the two most important ingredients for a championship team. Gonna be a heck of a season!
-
I maybe oversimplifying the culture of the Sioux and the whole Warrior aspect of it...But I think when we talk about the Sioux as a name for our athletic program it does revolve around the "warrior" stereotype and not all the other characteristics that go along with the Sioux culture...That maybe a wrong way to view it, but when an athletic team for this University gets ready for a game, the athletes as well as the general population aren't thinking about all the other aspects revolving around the Sioux culture. Like I said, it may not be the right way to view it, but that's the "athletic" way to view it IMO...I know there are many other aspects about the Sioux culture that the general public doesn't ever get to see or even knows about, but that goes back to the whole educating this town and area about the traditions of the Sioux people. I wish I knew more Native Americans where I could speak my mind and try to be constructive about this situation to them so we could resolve this issue and put it to rest once and for all, but I'm in the vast minority of people that even give any of these issues a thought. And I'm a student at this University and grew up here. I honestly think if we had an open forum or session where the public could come and ask questions about the Sioux culture to the people of the Sioux nation, that would solve a lot of our problems. Because all we know right now is some people want it changed and others want the name to stay. This isn't that difficult of a situation to understand and come to a resolution that is favorable for everyone. I just wish there were more people like me who were dedicated to keeping the name, yet wanting to learn more about the Sioux culture and what makes the Sioux people have such a hatred for anyone that does support the name. Because we aren't trying to cause conflict, we are trying to show support for the University and the athletic program in general.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I really respect the fact that you seem to genuinely want to learn about Sioux culture. I think its cool. I also wish that more of the people who supported the nickname felt this way. I guess that was the main motivation behind my posts. I get so frustrated by people saying honor this, honor that, but not really caring.
-
I like Rob Bollinger. He is a great guy, doing a great job in his current position, is well-respected and "bleeds green". But, does anyone know if he has the administrative and business background for the job?
Also, he has been a strong proponent of the University actively studying the move to DI - not necessarily a proponent of making the move but of doing the due diligence to make an informed decision. I agree with this 100%. However, I think that some people may see this as aggressively wanting to make the move. And, some of those same people (Kupchella, etc.). This may work against him!
Any one have any thoughts on this?
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I hope not as I think Rob Bollinger would be an outstanding AD, he bleeds green. His experience in the alumni foundation along with his success as a UND coach give him a great combination of experiences. Plus, he has the added bonus of having a son, Brooks, who played college football, so he has a unique understanding of the needs and expectations of student athletes and their parents. Roger Thomas didn't have any AD experience before taking the position and he did alright.
I was under the impression that Kupchella was not totally opposed to going DI, that he just wants to do due diligence. If that is the case, then I don't see how Bollinger's studying the possibility of a move would work against him. I'm glad to hear the Bollinger is not necessarily a proponent of making a move to DI, that he is all for studying it closely. I'm a little nervous about a move and don't think any irrational decisions should be made. NDSU screwed up, it will probably work out all right for them in the long run, but they jumped too early and will pay dearly in the short term.
-
Oh, wow, Hey thanks! Someone with an interesting perspective and some ideas instead of the usual shoot the messanger crap that everyone else on this board has been spewing. I just joined the board last week, so what if I've just been lurking around the rest of the website and haven't posted, give me a break. So, anyway thanks for the cognitive thoughts, I was getting worried!
I agree with you that people would still yell "Sioux" after the name is changed. In fact this is one area where I think name change advocates aren't being realistic. Perhaps I'm being unfair, but it seems like many of them think that once the name changes all the problems relating to the racism directed toward American Indians on this campus will cease. Of course, and most unfortunately, that probably won't be the case.
A few responses to your thoughtful comments: <<"Each team has its own tradition, but the entire athletic program has a completely separate tradition with the Sioux name and logo that every team symbolizes and wants to play exactly like how the Sioux lived.">>>
What? that's just wacky. You really think athletes and coaches want to play "exactly like how the Sioux lived?" Do you think any of them even have a clue how the Sioux lived? Come on, that's ridiculous and irrational. Sounds pretty, but doesn't hold up under the weight of logic and common sense.
<<"Don't assume that we know nothing about the Sioux tribe, it's people, or its history. You'd be surprised I think at what we do know or the amount of people that take the time to try to understand the history and culture of the Sioux tribe. You'd be suprised how many students take a class on Sioux history or Native American history in general because we are intrigued and interested in the topic.">>>
Look, I hate to be cynical, but I just don't buy it. I mean, you seem like someone that would fall into that category, but, sadly, I think you're in the minority. The evidence suggests that most people couldn't care less about actually learning about Sioux culture. Let me ask you this, how many people step around the Eagle feathers of the logo on the marble floors at the Ralph? The reason I ask is because those who know about plains Indian cultures like the Sioux could tell you that the Eagle was an incredibly sacred and revered creature. To attain eagle feathers required two warriors. They would go out and dig a hole and then one of them would get inside. the other one would cover the hole with brush and then put some bait on the brush. When the eagle swooped down, the warrior inside the hole would grab the eagle (can you imagine!) and the other warrior would bag the eagle. So, the eagle and the feathers which symbolize the eagle are highly respected. It seems to me, that if you really wanted to honor and respect Sioux culture, you would walk around those sacred feathers when walking through the Ralph. It seems to me that, the University would refrain from putting the logo and its feathers on center court or center ice only to be run and skated over. I remember reading a few years ago that the Chair of the Indian Studies department at the time and some Native students and faculty were upset about the new logo being placed on the Hylsop court. Yet, the University went ahead and put it there anyway. Sure you could say, 'who cares if a handful of people didn't want it, majority rules.' But, if you're trying to say that the UND athletic community strives to be respectful, then it seems to me that you honor such a sensible request. Look, I really, really apologize if I come across as upitty, but it seems to me that people can talk honor all they want, but its the actions that really count.
Who knows, maybe the name can be a positive by highlighting occurances like this and using them to educate people about American Indian culture. Maybe we need a mandatory class or workshop where students learn about the Sioux culture. Heck, it wouldn't be a bad idea to send out some educational material to the alumni. Maybe you are correct that a community education event on Sioux culture would be helpful (although, I suggest a venue with less stigma, like the Alerus Center). I don't know, but when people are buying and selling stuff like H-Sioux-O water and then talking about honor, it shows that we obviously have some work to do.
Let me respond to one more of your comments and then I gotta go. <<"How has this university minimized the history of the Sioux people and minimized the people who have played a role in creating that history?">>>
Actually, you don't even need me to answer that question for you as you answer it for yourself later on in your post. <<"Every coach tells them to honor them on their respective court/ice sheet/etc...exactly how they want everyone to remember them...as Warriors....They want to play with respect, courage, toughness, etc...and show everyone that they are truly honored to be wearing that jersey.">>
See, that's where the Natives I know who are against the use of the name get angry. They would say that your dipiction of the culture as Warriors is a simplification and stereotype of the culture. I would agree with them. While I have a great deal more to learn about Sioux culture, the more I have learned the more I begin to understand that while these people were and are (don't forget that American Indians, including the Sioux, serve in our Armed Forces in higher percentages than any other group) great warriors their culture emcompasses so much more than the warrior ethos. They have a very complex and beautiful spirituality. In fact, it is my understanding that other tribes throughout the continent have borrowed spiritual rituals from the Sioux because their traditions are so much more intact. Then of course there is the artistry, the songs, the dances, the games, ect. By oversimplifying the culture and focusing exclusively on the warrior facet of it, you are basically trying to freeze that culture in time (like around the time of Custer). In doing so you MINIMIZE THE HISTORY OF THE SIOUX PEOPLE
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It should also be noted that by focusing solely on the warrior facet of the culture, you are essentially ignoring the women of the culture, as they were not the warriors. they did the work of gardening, cooking, childrearing, ect.
-
Tradition: "The passing down of elements of a culture from generation to generation, especially by oral communication."
Cling: :To hold fast or adhere to something, as by grasping, sticking, embracing."
Sauce: "For people to cling to the name seems to minimize that history and the dedicated people who have played a role in creating that history."
---The definition of "cling" includes to embrace something or someone, which i think this University does as a whole. How has this university minimized the history of the Sioux people and minimized the people who have played a role in creating that history? Granted, some people aren't from this area, but a lot of people are and understand what this name means to this university. Don't assume that we know nothing about the Sioux tribe, it's people, or its history. You'd be surprised I think at what we do know or the amount of people that take the time to try to understand the history and culture of the Sioux tribe. You'd be suprised how many students take a class on Sioux history or Native American history in general because we are intrigued and interested in the topic. Thats what bothers me the most on this topic...everyone that wants to change the name basically says over and over that we don't understand the history or what the Sioux people did in the past...if thats the case, then maybe a member of the Sioux tribe or someone with vast knowledge of it should sit down one weekend and invite the entire community to a learning session about the Sioux tribe/people at REA. I think it would be beneficial for everyone.
Another thing, ask any Sioux athlete who they play for and it will be for the University of North Dakota Fighting Sioux...Every player understands when they put on that jersey who they are playing for, there is a tremendous amount of respect shown by the players that put on those jerseys. They are honestly grateful and humbled at the same time. They realize the magnitude of the name and the logo that comes with it. Every coach tells them to honor them on their respective court/ice sheet/etc...exactly how they want everyone to remember them...as Warriors....They want to play with respect, courage, toughness, etc...and show everyone that they are truly honored to be wearing that jersey. So to say it's not about tradition, I think you're mistaken. Athletes take a lot of pride in what they do/say and who they represent as a whole. Each team has its own tradition, but the entire athletic program has a completely separate tradition with the Sioux name and logo that every team symbolizes and wants to play exactly like how the Sioux lived.
Also, it would make a helleuva difference if we weren't called the Sioux, just like if the Gophers weren't called the Gophers. Everyone knows it would. If we changed the name, at the end of the national anthem everyone would still yell "Sioux" just like they do now. To have a few hundred/thousand people upset over the name compared to the the thousands that embrace it around here and the entire country I think is OK. That just means that everyone can have their opinion. It doesn't make my opinion any better than yours. We each get one vote. Welcome to the USA....Just one man's opinion though.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Oh, wow, Hey thanks! Someone with an interesting perspective and some ideas instead of the usual shoot the messanger crap that everyone else on this board has been spewing. I just joined the board last week, so what if I've just been lurking around the rest of the website and haven't posted, give me a break. So, anyway thanks for the cognitive thoughts, I was getting worried!
I agree with you that people would still yell "Sioux" after the name is changed. In fact this is one area where I think name change advocates aren't being realistic. Perhaps I'm being unfair, but it seems like many of them think that once the name changes all the problems relating to the racism directed toward American Indians on this campus will cease. Of course, and most unfortunately, that probably won't be the case.
A few responses to your thoughtful comments: <<"Each team has its own tradition, but the entire athletic program has a completely separate tradition with the Sioux name and logo that every team symbolizes and wants to play exactly like how the Sioux lived.">>>
What? that's just wacky. You really think athletes and coaches want to play "exactly like how the Sioux lived?" Do you think any of them even have a clue how the Sioux lived? Come on, that's ridiculous and irrational. Sounds pretty, but doesn't hold up under the weight of logic and common sense.
<<"Don't assume that we know nothing about the Sioux tribe, it's people, or its history. You'd be surprised I think at what we do know or the amount of people that take the time to try to understand the history and culture of the Sioux tribe. You'd be suprised how many students take a class on Sioux history or Native American history in general because we are intrigued and interested in the topic.">>>
Look, I hate to be cynical, but I just don't buy it. I mean, you seem like someone that would fall into that category, but, sadly, I think you're in the minority. The evidence suggests that most people couldn't care less about actually learning about Sioux culture. Let me ask you this, how many people step around the Eagle feathers of the logo on the marble floors at the Ralph? The reason I ask is because those who know about plains Indian cultures like the Sioux could tell you that the Eagle was an incredibly sacred and revered creature. To attain eagle feathers required two warriors. They would go out and dig a hole and then one of them would get inside. the other one would cover the hole with brush and then put some bait on the brush. When the eagle swooped down, the warrior inside the hole would grab the eagle (can you imagine!) and the other warrior would bag the eagle. So, the eagle and the feathers which symbolize the eagle are highly respected. It seems to me, that if you really wanted to honor and respect Sioux culture, you would walk around those sacred feathers when walking through the Ralph. It seems to me that, the University would refrain from putting the logo and its feathers on center court or center ice only to be run and skated over. I remember reading a few years ago that the Chair of the Indian Studies department at the time and some Native students and faculty were upset about the new logo being placed on the Hylsop court. Yet, the University went ahead and put it there anyway. Sure you could say, 'who cares if a handful of people didn't want it, majority rules.' But, if you're trying to say that the UND athletic community strives to be respectful, then it seems to me that you honor such a sensible request. Look, I really, really apologize if I come across as upitty, but it seems to me that people can talk honor all they want, but its the actions that really count.
Who knows, maybe the name can be a positive by highlighting occurances like this and using them to educate people about American Indian culture. Maybe we need a mandatory class or workshop where students learn about the Sioux culture. Heck, it wouldn't be a bad idea to send out some educational material to the alumni. Maybe you are correct that a community education event on Sioux culture would be helpful (although, I suggest a venue with less stigma, like the Alerus Center). I don't know, but when people are buying and selling stuff like H-Sioux-O water and then talking about honor, it shows that we obviously have some work to do.
Let me respond to one more of your comments and then I gotta go. <<"How has this university minimized the history of the Sioux people and minimized the people who have played a role in creating that history?">>>
Actually, you don't even need me to answer that question for you as you answer it for yourself later on in your post. <<"Every coach tells them to honor them on their respective court/ice sheet/etc...exactly how they want everyone to remember them...as Warriors....They want to play with respect, courage, toughness, etc...and show everyone that they are truly honored to be wearing that jersey.">>
See, that's where the Natives I know who are against the use of the name get angry. They would say that your dipiction of the culture as Warriors is a simplification and stereotype of the culture. I would agree with them. While I have a great deal more to learn about Sioux culture, the more I have learned the more I begin to understand that while these people were and are (don't forget that American Indians, including the Sioux, serve in our Armed Forces in higher percentages than any other group) great warriors their culture emcompasses so much more than the warrior ethos. They have a very complex and beautiful spirituality. In fact, it is my understanding that other tribes throughout the continent have borrowed spiritual rituals from the Sioux because their traditions are so much more intact. Then of course there is the artistry, the songs, the dances, the games, ect. By oversimplifying the culture and focusing exclusively on the warrior facet of it, you are basically trying to freeze that culture in time (like around the time of Custer). In doing so you MINIMIZE THE HISTORY OF THE SIOUX PEOPLE
-
-
-
-
This whole thing is such bs. I think both sides of this issue are ridiculous. The people for changing the name don't seem to consider the reality that a bunch of narrow-minded, racist and ignorant sore losers are probably going to make life almost unbearable on campus for students and faculty who fought for the name change, particularily American Indian students. Oh, and when you are asking people to respect you and not degrade you by using offensive names and stereotypes, it is a good idea not to mimick those behaviors yourself. Kinda counter productive and hypocritical, right Kracker?
Then you got the people on the side of keeping the name... total bs'ers! I mean, please, can you people give up the lame tradition argument. Come on! I've followed UND sports all my life, ITS ALL ABOUT THE SPORTS- the great athletes, the coaches, the fans. That's the story that's the tradition. Period. You people who get so caught up in a name and logo, I have wonder, if you are really true fans or if you are just the people who go to the Ralph to be "seen" or cuz its what everyone else does. do you sip martinis in the luxury boxes?
Just look at the hockey team. The historic rise of the UND men
Media Stories on the Sioux Name
in UND Nickname
Posted
This whole thing is such bs. I think both sides of this issue are ridiculous. The people for changing the name don't seem to consider the reality that a bunch of narrow-minded, racist and ignorant sore losers are probably going to make life almost unbearable on campus for students and faculty who fought for the name change, particularily American Indian students. Oh, and when you are asking people to respect you and not degrade you by using offensive names and stereotypes, it is a good idea not to mimick those behaviors yourself. Kinda counter productive and hypocritical, right Kracker?
Then you got the people on the side of keeping the name... total bs'ers! I mean, please, can you people give up the lame tradition argument. Come on! I've followed UND sports all my life, ITS ALL ABOUT THE SPORTS- the great athletes, the coaches, the fans. That's the story that's the tradition. Period. You people who get so caught up in a name and logo, I have wonder, if you are really true fans or if you are just the people who go to the Ralph to be "seen" or cuz its what everyone else does. do you sip martinis in the luxury boxes?
Just look at the hockey team. The historic rise of the UND men