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5G Corona (Enter at your own risk)

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4 hours ago, MafiaMan said:

And the 18 year old kid from Miles City, MT who died in a car crash a couple of weeks ago?  Oh, never heard about that...

It seems we pick and choose what deaths are worth noting these days.  I wonder why that is...

Not picking and choosing. The topic of the thread is covid19 and it’s been pointed out many times here that this virus doesn’t kill those 65 and under. unfortunately in this case it did kill a 31 year old Polk county resident that many in the community know either him or his family personally. 

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1 hour ago, Redneksioux said:

Not picking and choosing. The topic of the thread is covid19 and it’s been pointed out many times here that this virus doesn’t kill those 65 and under. unfortunately in this case it did kill a 31 year old Polk county resident that many in the community know either him or his family personally. 

And since there has been discussion about the secondary societal effects of COVID in this thread what about the 5 year old Native American girls that was killed on the Spirit Lake Reservation and who's 7 year old brother was critically injured a couple weeks ago. Investigation still ongoing but foster parents arrested. 

Since you're consumed with selective deaths....37 obituaries in the Fargo Forum today as well.

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4 minutes ago, Oxbow6 said:

And since there has been discussion about the secondary societal effects of COVID in these thread what about the 5 year old Native American girls that was killed on the Spirit Lake Reservation and who's 7 year old brother was critically injured a couple weeks ago. Investigation still ongoing but foster parents arrested. 

Since you're consumed with selective deaths....37 obituaries in the Fargo Forum today as well.

I think it's high time the Department of Health publish daily statistics on ALL deaths.

#FactsNotFear

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One thing to bear in mind about cherry picking data related to "young" COVID victims:

Even when they are reported to have "no underlying medical conditions," the word everyone seems to be leaving out is "KNOWN."  It is often reported that healthy people under 40-ish (ESPECIALLY MEN) do not regularly seek medical care, either routine checkups, preventative care, or even when they are sick.  Who here hasn't 'toughed' it through a bout of something, relying on rest and OTC meds?  And we all know the horrific stories of shockingly young athletes - IN THEIR PRIME - who literally die from latent cardiac irregularities.  Was it the sport or the exercise that killed them?  No.

So, when someone succumbs to "a virus" who falls within an age group with a disproportionately low mortality rate, it is very possible that they had an underlying medical condition that made them particularly susceptible.  I would dare say, it is darn near a fact certain that there was something medically significant going on, or they wouldn't have died from an opportunistic infection that their fellow 'healthy' peers overcame - often with few or zero symptoms.  

The fact that a condition in an isolated individual may have been undiagnosed does not warrant the reckless implication that the virus is of any greater threat to the population at large.  That is the essence of cherry-picking, and it is morally, ethically, and scientifically unjustified.

 

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1 hour ago, Redneksioux said:

The topic of the thread is covid19 and it’s been pointed out many times here that this virus doesn’t kill those 65 and under. 

No one has died in ND from Covid under 40.

 

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Since the North Dakota Department of Health (and probably other states) knows how many died "with Covid19" and "from Covid19,"

Why do they continue to report the "with Covid" number.

"Should we report the number where coronavirus is the primary cause of death?"

"Nah. Let's report the less useful number instead."

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11 hours ago, SIOUXFAN97 said:

i know one person that got the rona....guy in his 40's in Texas (RRHS class of 89 i think)...couldn't beat it...was going back to the hospital for the second time bc he was having a hard time breathing...asked about hydroxy and zpack...he said give it to me...within 5 hours he wanted to walk/run home....so let's stop this huge fail stuff.  There are hundreds if not thousands of people around the country that this combo worked for and just bc 500 elderly people were given the combo when they were already about 97 percent dead died 10 hours later doesn't mean it's a huge fail.

I'll skip past the fact that this is anecdotal, cause Iramurphy already covered that.  I'll admit that I have limited knowledge related to outpatient treatments (for anything, not just covid), so if it is working for outpatient practitioners, that's awesome.  My experience has been in inpatient care.  I don't consider everyone who arrives at  a hospital and requires admission to be 97% dead.  

Believe me when I say "huge fail" is in no way politically biased.  In a time of trialing new and unproven treatments, there is a large responsibility to find time in the madness to do real-time data tracking so that adjustments can be made as soon as possible.  While collective anecdotes do have their place, numbers are more important.  We found a higher incidence of codes, oxygen needs, and death in patients who received hydroxychloroquine compared to those who didn't.  Patients were stratified and compared based on severity so as to not bias the results if prescribers only picked HCQ for those who were already sicker.  The patient sample size included down to age 24, with most being in their 50s-70s.  The treatment arm included over 300 patients.  The results were not only statistically significant, but also clinically significant. So I'm not just saying that it didn't work; I'm saying that it was actually harmful.

You can believe what you want to believe, as people tend to do.  I've said in this thread before...the fact that every single major hospital system in the hardest hit area of the country has removed HCQ from their treatment protocol (based on internal data and independent from one another) is pretty damning in regards to the efficacy.  Hospitals are literally sitting on 10k+ tabs of donated inventory that will not be used for covid treatment.  We're currently looking into ways to donate our supply to organizations that could facilitate giving it to low income patients who need it for maintenance treatment of other diseases.

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9 hours ago, yzerman19 said:

Agree, but it is intriguing that it has worked in some and they’ve seen cytokines storm and kowasaki...autoimmune seems to be an angle on this sumbitch....

the weirdest still remains the AcE2 deal with Arbs...I’m an exec, not a doc, but very interesting...that presser system is interesting 

I was reading something the other week that hypothesized that the reason men have had worse outcomes than women is because ACE2 expression is high in the testicles.  A colleague told me that a hospital in Long Island was trialing treatment with estrogen.  I haven't confirmed that but :0

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1 hour ago, Redneksioux said:

Not picking and choosing. The topic of the thread is covid19 and it’s been pointed out many times here that this virus doesn’t kill those 65 and under. unfortunately in this case it did kill a 31 year old Polk county resident that many in the community know either him or his family personally. 

Finally!  I was waiting for one person under 40 to die from it so I could justify the 37 million jobless claims. 

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12 hours ago, keikla said:

I like that the article mentions differences in lifestyles now compared to 1969.  Not that people always stayed at home back then, but it's a big difference in percentage of meals at restaurants instead of home.  I would think rates of travel are significantly higher now too.  I think there are common behaviors now that make any pandemic more likely to spread than the same virus would have back then.

There have been a lot of comparisons about the covid response compared to H1N1 or the H3N2.  New flu strains tend to be more deadly, because nobody has antibodies.  But even then, it's still a flu.  Severe flu vs mild flu still follows the same treatment regimen, the difference is the extent of treatment needed.  There's also a certain level of confidence (at least there was by the time H1N1 rolled around) that a vaccine would be possible; it was just a matter of the time needed to get the specific strain.

That's not the same for covid.  It was clear from our very first covid patient that the treatment regimen for the flu wasn't going to cut it.  I think there is a large amount of uncertainty and fear when tried and true gets thrown out the window.  First we tried standard flu treatment (huge fail), then hydroxychloroquine (huge fail), then it was about actemra and immune-modulators (semi-fail), then anticoagulation (success, thank goodness), then convalescent plasma (success), then remdesivir (supposed success...we'll see).  Now it's a combo of anticoagulation plus plasma plus remdesivir.  And every hospital system is trying different things, many totally off the wall (famotidine 120mg three times daily?!?!).  And while a vaccine is under works, no one really knows if it's something that will be attainable and/or successful.

I think the "unknown" factor has played an extremely large role in why things have played out the way that they have.

In my list of treatments, I forgot proning (or as the peds like to call it , "tummy time") and using a nonrebreather to delay/avoid intubation.  Also a huge game changer.  If anyone here gets covid, even if you are ok to just stay home...lie on your stomach.  It makes a huge difference in your body's ability to get air to the lungs.

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When this whole thing began, we were told that the US medical community  couldn’t handle the number of cases that would occur and that we had to shut everything down to flatten the curve.  Clearly that was an over reaction, as we set up temporary medical facilities that went largely unused. 
It  just seems to me we used a chain saw to a problem that could have been resolved with pruning shears.

 
There been over-reach by public officials to take away rights and liberties, because they thought they could get away with it.  I am hopeful that will be reversed. 

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Regarding reporting:

”88 new cases!” — Ohhhh-kaaaayyy ....

1. They are not “new”. Testing just found them. Testing is a lagging indicator. (And speaking as a guy who’s done a lot of engineering testing, if test finds it, it’s too late. It’s already there and the money is spent, and you’ll spend even more to fix it.) 

2. 88? How many tests were done? If that’s 88 for 88, gulp. If that’s 88 of 88,000,000 tests, yawn. (<— PS - that’s about the rate of leprosy cases in the US annually, yes, like Biblical lepers.) 

3. Sample bias. We’re testing folks suspected. You’re starting with a biased sample set. You’re going to have more “finds”. Think of it this way, if you know fastball is coming you’re going to sit on the fastball and have a better at bat. 

Anecdote time: About 20 years ago I had reason to deal with media over a civil matter. I then learned that most media are not all that inquisitive or up on Civics 101, nor are they STEM minded. (I had to explain to a reporter what the ND Century Code is!) After consulting with my personal press advisor (PCM), I came to the conclusion that I (and you) should believe about half of what you see or read in the news. The raw data will more than likely be correct; however, the context or understanding of what it means will be questionable at best. And to ask them to explain why “percent daily positive” is more of a key stat than the raw “daily positives” number would be asking too much. 

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Based on some recent tweets by him, it seems Mr. Schlossman may not completely agree with the Fargo Forum’s editorial board’s take today that (paraphrased) we must protect livelihoods as much as lives. 

 

PS - Since “skin in game” cred seems to matter here: You all know I lost my mother to Alzheimer’s recently. The same unit just test up 100% positive in the residents. Did I mention I have an uncle in that ward? 

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26 minutes ago, GeauxSioux said:

There been over-reach by public officials to take away rights and liberties, because they thought they could get away with it.  I am hopeful that will be reversed. 

When have you witnessed acquired power given up willingly. 

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2 minutes ago, The Sicatoka said:

When have you witnessed acquired power given up willingly. 

After the Boston marathon bombing I watched people vacating their own houses with their hands in the air, being ordered about and led around by law enforcement, while they were searching for the bombers.  I shook my head and commented that a dangerous precedent was being set. 

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Just now, The Sicatoka said:

Credentialed authorities are comically bad at predicting the future. But reliable forecasting is possible.

Read More:
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/06/how-to-predict-the-future/588040/?utm_source=atl&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=share
 

Experts are great at one-dimensional, single variable thought. 

But the world is a multi-factor problem. 

And this is why experts in one field are wrong far too often. 

 

Scott Adams’ book “Loserthink” is a pretty good treatise on why one—dimensional thinking gets you in trouble and how to think multi-factor. I didn’t realized I’d followed the advice until I realized I can think as a design engineer, an educator, a software geek, member of a board with fiduciary responsibilities to thousands, a testing specialist, a former power of attorney for a parent, and a former farm kid. Thinking about problems from all those perspectives is a good thing. 

If you only see things from one angle, you’re not seeing all of it.

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56 minutes ago, The Sicatoka said:

Based on some recent tweets by him, it seems Mr. Schlossman may not completely agree with the Fargo Forum’s editorial board’s take today that (paraphrased) we must protect livelihoods as much as lives. 

He is great at this job......being sportswriter. He recent tweets IMO show he's out of his lane as it pertains to ND and this region from a livelihood standpoint and the direction we are heading in ND. 

How long can a failing hardcopy local paper afford to keep him and TM on staff if there's no local sports to cover at any level thru the next academic year?

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42 minutes ago, The Sicatoka said:

Experts are great at one-dimensional, single variable thought. 

But the world is a multi-factor problem. 

And this is why experts in one field are wrong far too often. 

 

Scott Adams’ book “Loserthink” is a pretty good treatise on why one—dimensional thinking gets you in trouble and how to think multi-factor. I didn’t realized I’d followed the advice until I realized I can think as a design engineer, an educator, a software geek, member of a board with fiduciary responsibilities to thousands, a testing specialist, a former power of attorney for a parent, and a former farm kid. Thinking about problems from all those perspectives is a good thing. 

If you only see things from one angle, you’re not seeing all of it.

So true- it applies to everything.  It’s why experience is such a good teacher...the more miles ya got, the more opportunities you’ve had to see different perspectives.  It’s also the basis of the core education requirements at a University.  Furthermore it applies to sports.  Too much specialization Too early in education, training or sport misses this core element of success.  

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1 hour ago, The Sicatoka said:

Based on some recent tweets by him, it seems Mr. Schlossman may not completely agree with the Fargo Forum’s editorial board’s take today that (paraphrased) we must protect livelihoods as much as lives. 

 

PS - Since “skin in game” cred seems to matter here: You all know I lost my mother to Alzheimer’s recently. The same unit just test up 100% positive in the residents. Did I mention I have an uncle in that ward? 

Is this the same Schlossman that didn’t have a negative response when it was stated the NHL might be looking to play games in Grand Forks.  Also waiting for him to say it would be irresponsible for UND to play in front of a full house in Nashville if there are any active cases of Corona around.  Of course with him it is only the NHL’s fault for allowing fighting, and no accountability for the players who know what blows to the head can do.  No personal accountability in his own little world.

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1 hour ago, Oxbow6 said:

He is great at this job......being sportswriter. He recent tweets IMO show he's out of his lane as it pertains to ND and this region from a livelihood standpoint and the direction we are heading in ND. 

How long can a failing hardcopy local paper afford to keep him and TM on staff if there's no local sports to cover at any level thru the next academic year?

and as mafia man can vouch for...one of the first thing companies pull when revenue is down is advertising.

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14 minutes ago, iramurphy said:

That means that if we can “treat them in our office” they are the ones we send home to self quarantine and unless they are in the group who develop increased respiratory problems, the disease make make them miserable for a few days, we don’t give Hydroxychloroquine/Azithromycin.
 

Therefore, she may do so, but I need to know what Keikla and her colleagues are doing with the patients whose disease progression has become life threatening. What she and her colleagues have learned and shared is invaluable. (We have discussed her experiences and recommendations at our strategic planning sessions).  It is consistent with what we are told by our Infectious Disease specialists and what is being reported throughout the medical world. Anecdotal stories from social media videos is not what will drive the strategy to combat this virus. The anecdotal experiences that medical providers are reporting to the CDC, State Health Departments, respected medical journals, respected medical associations and societies are where the compilation and reviews are taking place daily. We must remain flexible, vigilant and open minded. 

In my opinion that is why it is so difficult for our decision makers on both sides of the political spectrum to know what is best. What was thought to be best 2 months ago or 2 weeks ago changes. That is also why most of us in the medical profession want to avoid the political blather that ruins a reasonable discussion.
 

We also need to understand the impact this crisis is having outside of the clinics and hospitals.  There isn’t an easy answer. Just as important as paying attention to Keikla and learning from her experiences dealing first hand with life and death, while putting herself in harms way,  and risking her life for the sake of other human beings, we need to listen to those who are losing their livelihoods, businesses, jobs etc.

I read a pretty good post yesterday. The author stated “we are not all in the same boat. We are all in the same storm”.
As we navigate our way as a nation let’s remember those whose boats in this storm are sinking or leaking or have sunk. Those who have lost family or loved ones or suffered this illness are going to have an opinion that may be different than those who get no stimulus check or unemployment  It may be different than those whose hours have been cut back and aren’t sure if their old job will be there when this is over  it may be different than those who invested everything they have in a business venture and have either lost everything or are in danger of losing everything  

I certainly don’t have all of the answers. My recommendation is for anyone who doesn’t feel perfectly healthy (or normal for you), stay home and isolate until you are absolutely sure you aren’t ill. Call your doctor or provider if you aren’t improving or don’t know what to do. Wear a mask when you are around other people. Don’t worry that it might not help much cuz it might and it shouldn’t hurt. If you re-open your business’s follow CDC and health department guidelines. As we re-open businesses etc. we will face the risk of this disease for some time yet. Let’s remain vigilant. 

I liked the boat analogy too.  Some people are in a leaky row boat, some are in a 400 foot yacht.  

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I turned on CNN (or any news channel) for the first time in a couple weeks.

Looks like I haven't missed a thing.

First thing I saw was a segment attempting to shame states for reopening.

"Highest daily cases in Texas since reopening."

And then a guest:

"We need a lot more tests."

They showed the seperated painted circles on the grass in a NYC park you're allowed to chill in.

People in NYC probably crave touching the so little grass available they'd probably pay for that privilege.

"10 minute $10 rent a circle!"

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