Kennedy vs donors... again?

[Cratter]

Ray Richards Golf Course made a profit every year.

[UNDBIZ]

3 hours ago, nodak651 said:

I would like to read these emails.

"At one point, emails indicate the Richards family was comfortable with the sale of the land if it set up an endowment for men's golf (the endowment was estimated at $4.1 million), with potential excess funds going to indoor golf space attached to the proposed High Performance Center's Phase 2.

Last summer, however, the university pivoted on the length of time the endowment covers—telling the Richards family that even the sale of the land wouldn't guarantee permanent protection for the men's golf program."

The family "pivoted" on the endowment and made it known they wanted the endowment set by contract or law.  The family did this at the urging of Traynor, and then Traynor wonders why UND doesn't want to talk to him.  What if college athletics are no longer a thing in 40 years?  If UND did what Traynor wanted, they'd still be sponsoring men's golf in that scenario, whether the endowment is enough to pay all the expenses or not.

[TheFlop]

4 minutes ago, UNDBIZ said:

The family "pivoted" on the endowment and made it known they wanted the endowment set by law.  The family did this at the urging of Traynor, and then Traynor wonders why UND doesn't want to talk to him.  What if college athletics are no longer a thing in 40 years?  If UND did what Traynor wanted, they'd still be sponsoring men's golf in that scenario, whether the endowment is enough to pay all the expenses or not.

Come on, with the stunt that Kennedy pulled you are gonna question a donor that might want a little bit of a guarantee that Kennedy won't try screwing them over again a couple of years down the road?

[TheFlop]

1 hour ago, The Sicatoka said:

The State budget? The University budget? 

Try again.  There hasn't been any information presented showing that Ray Richards was a money drain.  Most reports are that it made a small profit each year.  

Like I said, I can't stand golf but I respect that alot of people utilize the courses in town.  It's laughable that Kennedy ever tried to paint Ray Richards as a budget issue with the bloated administration full of executive assistant vice president making $100k+ a year that he hasn't done anything to fix.

[The Sicatoka]

Here's a blast from the past: 

Lots of info from when this drama started. 

So what happened between this ("My understanding then is that there's no requirement in those documents that it be used as a golf course," Johnson said of the land.) and now? 

[UNDBIZ]

24 minutes ago, The Sicatoka said:

Here's a blast from the past: 

Lots of info from when this drama started. 

So what happened between this ("My understanding then is that there's no requirement in those documents that it be used as a golf course," Johnson said of the land.) and now? 

https://ndus.edu/state-board-of-higher-education/board-members/ - halfway down the page could have something to do with it

[TheFlop]

5 minutes ago, UNDBIZ said:

https://ndus.edu/state-board-of-higher-education/board-members/ - halfway down the page could have something to do with it

So a board member changed the initial agreement/understanding with the Richards family?

[Siouxperfan7]

[bison73]

1 hour ago, Siouxperfan7 said:

Who was trying to get there mitts on this prime real estate?

[TheFlop]

24 minutes ago, bison73 said:

Who was trying to get there mitts on this prime real estate?

Even the Bison fan on this thread can see this for what it was.  Which administrator/person associated with UND at a high level was invested (or had a relative invested in) a construction firm or development company that stood to profit from throwing up a bunch of new apartments on Ray Richards?

[UNDBIZ]

2 hours ago, TheFlop said:

So a board member changed the initial agreement/understanding with the Richards family?

A board member made UND care about it.

[UNDBIZ]

Just now, TheFlop said:

Even the Bison fan on this thread can see this for what it was.  Which administrator/person associated with UND at a high level was invested (or had a relative invested in) a construction firm or development company that stood to profit from throwing up a bunch of new apartments on Ray Richards?

Or the bison fan(s) are happy to rip on UND for anything.  Maybe UND just wanted money to build the HPC and saw they had some valuable land currently not returning much/if any $$ to the university, half of which UND paid for.

[Siouxperfan7]

43 minutes ago, bison73 said:

Who was trying to get there mitts on this prime real estate?

Jack Hartounian 

[TheFlop]

14 minutes ago, Siouxperfan7 said:

Jack Hartounian 

Almost worth a down vote for the Caddyshack 2 reference lol.  Randy Quaid needed a bigger role to save that movie.

[Frozen4sioux]

8 hours ago, The Sicatoka said:

You can donate, you can make your wishes known, ...

But what if in 1890 someone donated a bunch of horse-buggies for campus shuttles for "perpetual" use by the University as the shuttle system? Would UND still have to be using them, even if the cost of ownership (horses!) becomes more than the value? 

Times change; needs change. 

see i think this is a very valid point.

[Old Fella]

1 hour ago, Frozen4sioux said:

see i think this is a very valid point.

Golfing has been around for a couple of centuries/changes have been in the tools used,

To compare horses to golf--Well

[SiouxVolley]

Have to ask is a permanent golf course an appropriate gift for University?

Maybe in the South it is.  But up to six months it is unusable in GF and it is prime real estate.  Valley, Lincoln and GF CC courses are not.

Perhaps if they added frisbee golf, an outdoor workout area, cross country skiing and more nature walks like along the bike path on the north English coulee, and softball and baseball diamonds, it would make much more sense for the faculty and students that aren’t into golfing.  If golfing is so important to attract faculty and students, UND could get reduced cost passes at Lincoln or Valley courses.

The golf crowd has tremendous power beyond their numbers, probably because they are more likely to be high givers.  Always thought Ray Richards should be developed by UND when the need arises and other cheaper land further west could be made into a UND course with many more attractions.  It seems selfish just for a golf course.

[Old Fella]

2 minutes ago, SiouxVolley said:

Have to ask is a permanent golf course an appropriate gift for University?

Maybe in the South it is.  But up to six months it is unusable in GF.

Perhaps if they added frisbee golf, an outdoor work exercise area, cross country skiing and more nature walks like along the bike path on the north English coulee, in would make much more sense for the faculty and students that aren’t into golfing.  If golfing is so important, UND could get reduced cost passes at Lincoln or Valley courses.

The golf crowd has tremendous power beyond their numbers, probably because they are more likely to be high givers.  Always thought Ray Richards should be developed by UND when the need arises and other cheaper land further west could be made into a UND course with many more attractions.

What is a permanent/appropriate gift to the Univ

[SiouxVolley]

9 minutes ago, Old Fella said:

What is a permanent/appropriate gift to the Univ

“Permanent” can be for 30years or so..  After that, it’s at the discretion of the U.  When Ray Richards was first started, south or east or west there was nothing.  Now it’s surrounded by apartments, medical and commercial developments.

Hyslop was a gift (or at least partially), but is now scheduled for demolition.  Loved that place and it used to be the showcase for ND tournaments and US Presidents, but now it has outlived it’s day.

Change is very hard for Grand Forkians.  Seems they want everything to remain the same like a museum.  But a prospering city keeps only limited landmarks if they have smart development.

[SIOUXFAN97]

47 minutes ago, SiouxVolley said:

Have to ask is a permanent golf course an appropriate gift for University?

Maybe in the South it is.  But up to six months it is unusable in GF and it is prime real estate.  Valley, Lincoln and GF CC courses are not.

Perhaps if they added frisbee golf, an outdoor workout area, cross country skiing and more nature walks like along the bike path on the north English coulee, and softball and baseball diamonds, it would make much more sense for the faculty and students that aren’t into golfing.  If golfing is so important to attract faculty and students, UND could get reduced cost passes at Lincoln or Valley courses.

The golf crowd has tremendous power beyond their numbers, probably because they are more likely to be high givers.  Always thought Ray Richards should be developed by UND when the need arises and other cheaper land further west could be made into a UND course with many more attractions.  It seems selfish just for a golf course.

golf for 7 months and groomed x-country trails for 5 months?

[Cratter]

If the University doesn't want the golf course anymore I'm sure the Richards family would happily take it back.

[TheFlop]

I don't think anyone would argue that if golf is ever obsolote that something different should be done with the land, but golf seems like it is far from obsolete.  That being said, if Kennedy had more of a plan for the land (I.e. entertainment options for students that could help replace what was being lost) and had presented that plan to the Richards family in a respectful manner I'm guessing they would have been more receptive to it too versus the phony "we need to get out of the running a profitable golf course business" line.  

[CMSioux]

The popularity in golf is declining world-wide. Golf courses are closing every day due to lack of players. It is not a game that has much of a future once the babyboomers are done playing.  

Why are fewer Americans playing golf? There are three main reasons.

First, golf’s calm pace may no longer fit in with modern lifestyles. It can take more than four hours to play a full round of 18 holes. And disappearing to the golf course for half the weekend is not compatible with modern attitudes to child-rearing.

Second, while golf may have managed to shake off some of its elitist image, America’s troubled economy is once more making it a pursuit of the wealthy. Middle and lower-income golfers have seen their pay packets shrink, hurting membership numbers at mid-range golf courses. Some public courses have been closed by local governments making spending cuts.  

Third, golf has become harder to play. Since the 1990s golf-course designers have taken to building longer, tougher courses in order to put golfers and their equipment to the test. The sport’s growing difficulty and its 200-page rulebook make it a tough sell to new players.

 

[jdub27]

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong on this but if I remember correctly, part of the reason it got cut was with how the budget cuts were allocated. While I'm not sure the course was actually profitable each year (though very close to break-even one way or another), when looking at the budgets, it was about a $300K line item that is pretty non-essential to the mission of the University (much more so than housing or dining), especially when the golf teams don't even utilize it. And that number is the annual operating costs and wouldn't include any upgrades or capital needs of the course. Closing it didn't really move the needle one way or another on the profit side, it does make an impact in terms of cutting a percentage of revenues/budgeted funds, which is what the state mandated cuts were based off of. 

Also, to be clear, only 25% of the land the golf course sat on was gifted to the University, the remaining 75% was purchased. I don't know what land prices were in 1962 and whether it was sold at a discount, but UND paid $300 acre for 75% of the land, with the remainder being given. What's interesting is the current size of the course is only 67.5 acres, much smaller than the original 150 acres.

Quote

The course in question is named after UND alumnus Ray Richards, who, along with three other owners, donated the 150-acre former farm to the university in 1962. 

The original landowners transferred the plot to the university for a rate of $300 per acre, for a total of $45,000.

Of that sum, Richards gifted $11,250 outright.

 

[Oxbow6]

2 hours ago, CMSioux said:

The popularity in golf is declining world-wide. Golf courses are closing every day due to lack of players. It is not a game that has much of a future once the babyboomers are done playing.  

Why are fewer Americans playing golf? There are three main reasons.

First, golf’s calm pace may no longer fit in with modern lifestyles. It can take more than four hours to play a full round of 18 holes. And disappearing to the golf course for half the weekend is not compatible with modern attitudes to child-rearing.

Second, while golf may have managed to shake off some of its elitist image, America’s troubled economy is once more making it a pursuit of the wealthy. Middle and lower-income golfers have seen their pay packets shrink, hurting membership numbers at mid-range golf courses. Some public courses have been closed by local governments making spending cuts.  

Third, golf has become harder to play. Since the 1990s golf-course designers have taken to building longer, tougher courses in order to put golfers and their equipment to the test. The sport’s growing difficulty and its 200-page rulebook make it a tough sell to new players.

 

Ray Richards was a 9 hole course that cost in the low $20s depending on the day of the week to play before it closed. Doesn't fit into the first point or second point. The third point is.........

Most people who played Ray Richards were not single digit handicappers. They were people looking to enjoy a nice weather day with friends/family while chasing around a white ball whether they shot bogey or triple bogey golf.