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Conference Realignments - Take 2

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Just now, jdub27 said:

Just for perspective, there were people that already tried to slap UND with a Title IX lawsuit after WIH was cut (despite them being the most in balance of all the Dakota schools). The uproar to add back just baseball would further that agenda even though I believe UND would still be well within compliance. To offset it, they would almost have to add back women's sport, which theoretically should be S&D but everyone knows how the conversation would realistically go.

At that point, you might as well add them all back.  Once Pandora’s box is open you cannot shut it. 

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1 hour ago, Yote 53 said:

What if it meant the dissolution of the conference and ALL sports (except hockey and football) being negatively effected?  Let me spin this another way, every FEMALE sport would be greatly harmed if the Summit League lost it's autobid.  How would that play with a certain segment of the population?  Being in a conference without access to NCAA championships and NCAA payouts is going to cost more than the cost of adding one sport in order to stabilize the conference.  

As long as a conference has six schools in almost any sport it qualifies for that autobid in most sports.  But qualifying for an Dance bid requires more hurdles, like meeting all the NCAA rules.

But the Big Dance bid feeds the conference money, as the NCAA gives Dance shares and recognizes the conference as a full time one with additional money.  If one doesn’t qualify for a Dance bid, it would be like the Great West only with bids for minor sports.  Most conference schools would need to drop sports for $ saving or get in another.

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WIU’s President has resigned after being forced out.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-met-western-illinois-university-president-resigns-20190614-story.html

WIU has lost 38% of enrollment during his tenure, laid off staff, and a four 15 story dormitories have been mothballed.

How long can WIU afford DI?  They haven’t made improvements to their basketball arena, and they are an original Mid-Con team and the only one that hasn’t jumped ship.

Illinois seems to want to destroy their regional U’s.  The students are forced to Mizzou, Iowa, Iowa St as they charge lower tuition for a better education and more variety at jobs that pay.

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3 hours ago, SIOUXFAN97 said:

drop wiu and add mankato and then expand with augie.....then get morningside on the phone

Mankato has an endowment of under $60 mill, while Morningside has one just above $30 mill. Not nearly enough.  St Thomas, over $400 million,  has one that could elevate it to DI eventually.  Augustana needs a sugar daddy or a big gift to finance that DI endeavor, as it has a larger endowment than Mankato but still under $70 million.

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The best solution is a summit big sky venture.

unfortunately egos get in the way, some think they are too good to be traveling to the Dakotas.

what name could we put on the conference to make it look appealing?

 

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12 minutes ago, Kab said:

The best solution is a summit big sky venture.

unfortunately egos get in the way, some think they are too good to be traveling to the Dakotas.

what name could we put on the conference to make it look appealing?

 

valley of the sun conference

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24 minutes ago, Kab said:

The best solution is a summit big sky venture.

unfortunately egos get in the way, some think they are too good to be traveling to the Dakotas.

what name could we put on the conference to make it look appealing?

 

Earlier, had said the drop dead date was the end of this June.  But any mass movement before next May would be acceptable, but planning a new football schedule and referees would be a problem.  Think they don’t want to announce too early as the G5 could take action at their next NCAA meetings this summer to prevent more FBS moveups.

While hate to admit it, NDSU probably has the biggest football cachet among any sub AAC or sub MWC school.  Getting a Denver Metro and Salt Lake Metro team would also be important, and those would be available.

Great Northern (old RR that frontiered the states) or American Outback conference or Northern Lights conference (maybe the Aurora Borealis Conference instead as its starts with ‘A’)

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https://www.twincities.com/2019/06/15/charley-walters-low-key-rocco-baldelli-has-just-the-right-touch-for-twins/

Blurb about St Thomas will approach the NCAA to skip DII and move right on to DI.  They want to be like Creighton, Marquette, Xavier, etc, Don’t think the NCAA will approve that, but could be wrong.

If Augustana gets invited to the Summit, the Northern Sun will need someone to stay at an even #.

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On 6/15/2019 at 3:44 PM, SIOUXFAN97 said:

drop wiu and add mankato and then expand with augie.....then get morningside on the phone

Morningside struggled in D2 so they are in the NAIA now and are very happy.  They'd have to go D2 first before D1, and I just don't see them wanting to.

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10 minutes ago, NeutralObserver said:

Morningside struggled in D2 so they are in the NAIA now and are very happy.  They'd have to go D2 first before D1, and I just don't see them wanting to.

i was kidding...bring back the ole ncc is a joke...ndac and sdac left the ncc to play the big boys and 15 years later they are back in the ncc 2.1

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Well....it didn't happen last year....

On 5/16/2018 at 4:44 PM, SiouxVolley said:

Liberty is moving to the Atlantic Sun.

http://www.aseaofred.com/liberty-to-make-major-conference-affiliation-announcement/

Followed by James Madison, Delaware, Stony Brook and Jacksonville St and maybe Youngstown St, UNH, Chattanooga.  The A Sun already has Kennesaw St and UNF and FGCU would want FBS someday.  By July 1st this will all get sorted out, as will the Summit and WAC.  

 

 


But for sure it was going to happen this year.....

On 1/3/2019 at 9:08 PM, SiouxVolley said:

If the announcements aren’t made by July 1st, 2019, I’ll shut my trap permanently to this board about Summit movement.

But UND’s DI hopes for a stable conference would be over permanently too.

Both Dixie St and Metro St of Denver are scheduled to announce plans in January and look for them both to end up in the Big Sky.  They may announce for the WAC but get traded.

EWU, the Montanas, Idaho, and Weber st will announce plans soon after.

 


But now, I guess not. So on to 7/1/20 then? I guess with only 2 weeks left until a self-imposed deadline, time to start hedging.

On 6/15/2019 at 7:30 PM, SiouxVolley said:

Earlier, had said the drop dead date was the end of this June.  But any mass movement before next May would be acceptable, but planning a new football schedule and referees would be a problem.  Think they don’t want to announce too early as the G5 could take action at their next NCAA meetings this summer to prevent more FBS moveups.

While hate to admit it, NDSU probably has the biggest football cachet among any sub AAC or sub MWC school.  Getting a Denver Metro and Salt Lake Metro team would also be important, and those would be available.

Great Northern (old RR that frontiered the states) or American Outback conference or Northern Lights conference (maybe the Aurora Borealis Conference instead as its starts with ‘A’)

 

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4 hours ago, jdub27 said:

Well....it didn't happen last year....

 


But for sure it was going to happen this year.....

 


But now, I guess not. So on to 7/1/20 then? I guess with only 2 weeks left until a self-imposed deadline, time to start hedging.

 

Never yet have heard a decent proposal from you on how to save and make the Summit League prosper.  Adding Bellarmine would have at least given the Summit a real beginning at an Eastern division, but Bellarmine will probably do what N Kentucky did, leave the A Sun to join the Horizon, which doesn’t take DI transitioning teams.  The move by the A Sun is just a mirage, as they don’t have to be positioned for FBS until 2025.  Why invite FCS schools that want to move up half a decade before it happens when the G5 will attempt to stop it with new rules if it vegans?

Know the Northern Big Sky to the Summit just absolutely eats you up with anger.  Montana would lose its major rivalries with SUU and Sac St, and you care more about those ”rivalries” than a stable Summit League.  The Summit has lost a quadrillion schools in the past 40 years, but somehow you stating it is stable will magically change it.  If PUFW, WIU, or ORU leave, the Summit will have an existential crisis unless they add footballl.  Nothing you have said changes that.

 

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15 hours ago, jdub27 said:

Well....it didn't happen last year....


But for sure it was going to happen this year.....


But now, I guess not. So on to 7/1/20 then? I guess with only 2 weeks left until a self-imposed deadline, time to start hedging.

 

Did you expect anything else?

Even the attacking, presumptuous response was predictable. 

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13 hours ago, jdub27 said:

I apologize for not submitting a formal proposal, however I am fine with not throwing completely random scenarios against the wall, stating matter-of-factly that it is exactly what is going to happen and then try to run down anyone who offers any realistic criticism to those pie-in-the-sky scenarios. If you presented your ideas in a different way, the criticism you got would be completely different. Instead you choose to state your opinions (at best) secret, behind the scenes things going on and claim others aren't able to see these things only you can and then are somehow surprised when they don't happen. There are plenty of people who are actually at least somewhat plugged into what is going on, at least with UND directly, yet you continue to brush those aside. Even when you were told UND to the Summit/MVFC was a done deal by multiple people, you refused to believe it. 

I'm not sure where you get the thought that I'm somehow against a merger of the top Summit and Big Sky teams. I think it would be a fantastic conference. I also realize, at this point in time, it isn't going to happen. Full stop. The interest isn't there from either side and the Montana's have no desire to leave the Big Sky. None. I also have no argument about the Summit having stability issues. I've always been less than impressed with Douple's reactionary MO. Not stating I have all the answers on what he should be doing differently (nor am I going to pretend by concocting unrealistic scenarios), but getting waivers from the NCAA doesn't seem to be the most ideal route to keep autobids and my guess is that is the current plan if the baseball or soccer numbers fell below the requirement. It seems they keep waiting for a seismic change that I'm not so sure is going to happen.

It’s clear you don’t have a clue about the geographical predicament North Dakota and Montana teams are in.

When UNI broke from the NCC and established the Mid Con, a line was drawn at the Iowa northern border and that further  eastern schools won’t go above for getting conference mates.  UNI might be the the exception now at their willingness to associate with Dakota schools, but their in a far higher league because of it.

The Big Sky has lost Gonzaga, Nevada, and Boise St which the Montana’s and Idaho have been sore about since.  Adding Sac St, Northridge St,  and Portland St just didn’t satisfy for fan bases or in academics.

In the 1970’s, The Montana’s were reaching out to the North Dakota’s to join, but the rest including Idaho, Idaho St and Weber St wouldn’t have anything to do with us.  But the Montana’s were interested.

When NDSU went DI, Chapman bet that the Montana’s would finally succeed and wagered that NDSU and SDSU would be offered.  After all, Chapman came from Montana St and knew of their strategic interests.  From websites, the Montana’s were very much interested, but the rest of the Big Sky put the hammer down and stopped it.

But later, the Montanas had success in getting UND and USD invites when they threatened to leave for the WAC, so the Big Sky yielded as would lose their TV source and money and fan bases.  The Montanas and Idaho know they would never get an offer from the MWC as their don’t have enough eyeballs.  The Big Sky accepting UND saved its fb program from massive disinterest, which is what NDSU had planned.

Now, Idaho wants FBS again in a way that will be cheaper and capable and Weber St doesn’t publically like SUU, UVU and Dixie St playing in their sandbox, so it has changed its mind too.

Omaha could be a possible Horizon or MVC member, but hockey is now the key feature of its sports and that ties them to UND.  Denver also wants to associate with UND for the same reason.  Why Denver and Omaha are confident in the Summit’s future is surprising, as they haven’t been offering themselves as a sort of prostitute.

If a Northern  League wasn’t about to happen, schools like Fort Hays St and Washburn in Kansas would be invited and maybe Central Missouri and Nebraska-Kearney too.  Since DII moveups take at least five years to become DI, the Summit must have other plans to avoid extinction.

University Presidents just love high academics and research too.  SUU. Sac St, Idaho St, N Colo, WIU, ORU and PUFW don’t measure up.  The Montana Presidents will go into an orgasmic fit of joy when they join the Summit, but they are very discrete.  Most D2 teams would water down academics, St Thomas excepted.

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22 minutes ago, SiouxFan100 said:

What year are the Montana schools joining the summit?

When PUFW (or ORU or WIU) leaves, something needs to happen within two years or the Summit is defunct as a dance league, but as conference could still be alive for non mbb auto bids though.

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Unfortunately, I don't think we will ever again see UND in the same conference with the likes of Montana, Montana St., Idaho, or Weber St.  We did it once, and not only was the fan-base apathetic to it but so was the administration, sadly. 

Unless of course if NDSU were to join up with some of those schools.  Then UND's "stakeholders" would get on board.  Whatever NDSU does, we will do.  Could be the MAC or the Sun Belt, could be the Big Sky or the Sum/Valley for the next 30 years.  The only person that really knows what our future holds at this point is Dean Breschani..............

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 NDSU is at the point of major embarrassment.  They have won more FCS championships than anyone, but no G5 conference interest exists.  They need to go FBS and my plan lays it out.

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6 hours ago, SiouxVolley said:

 NDSU is at the point of major embarrassment.  They have won more FCS championships than anyone, but no G5 conference interest exists.  They need to go FBS and my plan lays it out.

I'm sure they're incredibly embarrassed to have so many trophies...

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10 hours ago, SiouxVolley said:

It’s clear you don’t have a clue about the geographical predicament North Dakota and Montana teams are in.

When UNI broke from the NCC and established the Mid Con, a line was drawn at the Iowa northern border and that further  eastern schools won’t go above for getting conference mates.  UNI might be the the exception now at their willingness to associate with Dakota schools, but their in a far higher league because of it.

The Big Sky has lost Gonzaga, Nevada, and Boise St which the Montana’s and Idaho have been sore about since.  Adding Sac St, Northridge St,  and Portland St just didn’t satisfy for fan bases or in academics.

In the 1970’s, The Montana’s were reaching out to the North Dakota’s to join, but the rest including Idaho, Idaho St and Weber St wouldn’t have anything to do with us.  But the Montana’s were interested.

When NDSU went DI, Chapman bet that the Montana’s would finally succeed and wagered that NDSU and SDSU would be offered.  After all, Chapman came from Montana St and knew of their strategic interests.  From websites, the Montana’s were very much interested, but the rest of the Big Sky put the hammer down and stopped it.

But later, the Montanas had success in getting UND and USD invites when they threatened to leave for the WAC, so the Big Sky yielded as would lose their TV source and money and fan bases.  The Montanas and Idaho know they would never get an offer from the MWC as their don’t have enough eyeballs.  The Big Sky accepting UND saved its fb program from massive disinterest, which is what NDSU had planned.

Now, Idaho wants FBS again in a way that will be cheaper and capable and Weber St doesn’t publically like SUU, UVU and Dixie St playing in their sandbox, so it has changed its mind too.

Omaha could be a possible Horizon or MVC member, but hockey is now the key feature of its sports and that ties them to UND.  Denver also wants to associate with UND for the same reason.  Why Denver and Omaha are confident in the Summit’s future is surprising, as they haven’t been offering themselves as a sort of prostitute.

If a Northern  League wasn’t about to happen, schools like Fort Hays St and Washburn in Kansas would be invited and maybe Central Missouri and Nebraska-Kearney too.  Since DII moveups take at least five years to become DI, the Summit must have other plans to avoid extinction.

University Presidents just love high academics and research too.  SUU. Sac St, Idaho St, N Colo, WIU, ORU and PUFW don’t measure up.  The Montana Presidents will go into an orgasmic fit of joy when they join the Summit, but they are very discrete.  Most D2 teams would water down academics, St Thomas excepted.

Again, so much projection, assumptions and wild guesses presented as facts. Here are my various thoughts on your "facts", some coming from conversations from people connected with the actual decision making process.

  • I understand the geography, but you seem to continue to ignore the Montana's have no desire to move their footprint out of the west.
  • Idaho was so sore about those teams leaving, they left and then came back.
  • The 1970's were almost 50 years ago, none of that is relevant, the landscape has changed just a little bit since then.
  • Exactly what TV source and money was the Big Sky going to lose? The Altitude contract? Or the free streaming they offer for the rest of their sports?
  • Based on recent decisions, Idaho isn't going to go back to FBS without a massive shift. Weber St. doesn't have the support to go up, they are an after-though in the SLC metro and always will be with Utah 45 miles away and BYU 80 miles away. They averaged a whopping 8,300 as the #3 team in the country over 8 games this year, half of which were top 25 match-ups.
  • Omaha will do what's best for them. They won't be tied to the Summit because of their hockey relationship with UND. If the MVC called, they would take it in a heartbeat.
  • Denver is just going to go to wherever will let them be and keep their eclectic sports mix. Their decision on that is the exact reason why they are in the Summit, they don't want to change their offerings.
  • Again, Douple's plan seems to be to let everything play out and then ask for waivers in the interim if needed. If the Summit ends up short a team and came up with a plan that involved getting back to the right-sized number that included a D2 move-up, the NCAA would grant a waiver. They've done it in the past and aren't going to pull an auto-bid that quickly. Not a fan of the plan, but it seems that is what it is right now.
  • My personal opinion is you are over blowing this significantly, especially at the low-major level. Yes, people want to be associated with peers, but it is a lot more complicated than that. You've made that claim about the last UM president, who didn't make a move. You made the claim about Kennedy, who threw you a curveball and moved UND to the Summit/MVFC (because of cost and rivalries, not "prestige") and the MSU president doesn't strike me as someone who is all that concerned about the "prestige" they would get from collaborating with the Dakota's in athletics. 

 

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2 hours ago, jdub27 said:

Again, so much projection, assumptions and wild guesses presented as facts. Here are my various thoughts on your "facts", some coming from conversations from people connected with the actual decision making process.

  • I understand the geography, but you seem to continue to ignore the Montana's have no desire to move their footprint out of the west.
  • Idaho was so sore about those teams leaving, they left and then came back.
  • The 1970's were almost 50 years ago, none of that is relevant, the landscape has changed just a little bit since then.
  • Exactly what TV source and money was the Big Sky going to lose? The Altitude contract? Or the free streaming they offer for the rest of their sports?
  • Based on recent decisions, Idaho isn't going to go back to FBS without a massive shift. Weber St. doesn't have the support to go up, they are an after-though in the SLC metro and always will be with Utah 45 miles away and BYU 80 miles away. They averaged a whopping 8,300 as the #3 team in the country over 8 games this year, half of which were top 25 match-ups.
  • Omaha will do what's best for them. They won't be tied to the Summit because of their hockey relationship with UND. If the MVC called, they would take it in a heartbeat.
  • Denver is just going to go to wherever will let them be and keep their eclectic sports mix. Their decision on that is the exact reason why they are in the Summit, they don't want to change their offerings.
  • Again, Douple's plan seems to be to let everything play out and then ask for waivers in the interim if needed. If the Summit ends up short a team and came up with a plan that involved getting back to the right-sized number that included a D2 move-up, the NCAA would grant a waiver. They've done it in the past and aren't going to pull an auto-bid that quickly. Not a fan of the plan, but it seems that is what it is right now.
  • My personal opinion is you are over blowing this significantly, especially at the low-major level. Yes, people want to be associated with peers, but it is a lot more complicated than that. You've made that claim about the last UM president, who didn't make a move. You made the claim about Kennedy, who threw you a curveball and moved UND to the Summit/MVFC (because of cost and rivalries, not "prestige") and the MSU president doesn't strike me as someone who is all that concerned about the "prestige" they would get from collaborating with the Dakota's in athletics. 

 

You are the one with wild ass assumptions.

Conference autobids are so closely guarded and watched, and the Summit has already almost lost it until ORU came back as both baseball and men’s soccer were almost dead.  The waiver the NCAA gives is for it to get back in compliance, within two years, of the rules.  The Summit was already out of compliance for two years, so if ORU had not come back, the Summit’s Dance bid would have been dead.  The Summit has reason to pay ORU to come back as ORU had very limited funds at the time.  The Fargo media isn’t sophisticated enough to pick this up, after all, it thought that St Thomas could move immediately to SI.  The NCAA doesn’t give unlimited time for waivers.

The NCAA is run for and by the P5 FBS conferences.  They don’t want more dance bids to go out to lesser conference, so they have changed the rules to prevent new ones, and become stricter with those already out there with a goal of reducing them.  Used to be that lesser conferences would have eight or so teams, now it is more like 12, and the Summit is way short of even that safety margin.

You totally ignore Montanas academic desires.  The Big Sky in 1980 was OK as it wasn’t fat with weaker academics but it is not now.  UC Davis, which is PAC 12 quality, does not count as a full member.

Idaho would now go broke trying to mimic Boise St.  When the WAC FBS broke up, that screwed them and they had to resort back to the Montanas option.

My personal prognosis is that you are an idiot and totally ignorant of NCAA rules and academic desires of University Presidents.  It is a big deal for them.

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34 minutes ago, SiouxVolley said:

You are the one with wild ass assumptions.

Conference autobids are so closely guarded and watched, and the Summit has already almost lost it until ORU came back as both baseball and men’s soccer were almost dead.  The waiver the NCAA gives is for it to get back in compliance, within two years, of the rules.  The Summit was already out of compliance for two years, so if ORU had not come back, the Summit’s Dance bid would have been dead.  The Summit has reason to pay ORU to come back as ORU had very limited funds at the time.  The Fargo media isn’t sophisticated enough to pick this up, after all, it thought that St Thomas could move immediately to SI.  The NCAA doesn’t give unlimited time for waivers.

The NCAA is run for and by the P5 FBS conferences.  They don’t want more dance bids to go out to lesser conference, so they have changed the rules to prevent new ones, and become stricter with those already out there with a goal of reducing them.  Used to be that lesser conferences would have eight or so teams, now it is more like 12, and the Summit is way short of even that safety margin.

You totally ignore Montanas academic desires.  The Big Sky in 1980 was OK as it wasn’t fat with weaker academics but it is not now.  UC Davis, which is PAC 12 quality, does not count as a full member.

Idaho would now go broke trying to mimic Boise St.  When the WAC FBS broke up, that screwed them and they had to resort back to the Montanas option.

My personal prognosis is that you are an idiot and totally ignorant of NCAA rules and academic desires of University Presidents.  It is a big deal for them.

LOL.

Yep, I don't have a clue what is going. Can't believe how much I missed the mark when I told you UND had been in consistent contact with the Summit/MVFC over a few year period and the move was imminent because FBS is not even close to UND's radar right now. Really swung and missed on that one. Should have listened to your consistent message of the Dakota's moving to a split Big Sky instead.

I'm also well aware of the rules and have been in agreement with you on the danger the Summit autobid is on. I can't help that you have more faith in Tom Douple than I do and think he's masterminding something when he isn't. I also understand the public perception optics of the NCAA announcing they are taking away a basketball autobid because of soccer and baseball, which is why waivers will be the band-aid in the case one is needed.  

 

Only 12 more days until your self-imposed ban on the topic. I'm almost disappointed because I actually enjoy some of the insight, it is the presentation that is lacking.

On 1/3/2019 at 9:08 PM, SiouxVolley said:

If the announcements aren’t made by July 1st, 2019, I’ll shut my trap permanently to this board about Summit movement.

But UND’s DI hopes for a stable conference would be over permanently too.

Both Dixie St and Metro St of Denver are scheduled to announce plans in January and look for them both to end up in the Big Sky.  They may announce for the WAC but get traded.

EWU, the Montanas, Idaho, and Weber st will announce plans soon after.

 

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