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The Sicatoka

Lacrosse at a "DI" UND?

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4 minutes ago, cberkas said:

Spring sport

Grand Forks and spring sports don’t go together. HPC could host it as the Alerus would probably be used for softball. Other than venue, I would love to see lacrosse. It looks fun.

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2 hours ago, darell1976 said:

Grand Forks and spring sports don’t go together. HPC could host it as the Alerus would probably be used for softball. Other than venue, I would love to see lacrosse. It looks fun.

For just men's lacrosse it will run $2-$1 million, so I'd expect women's lacrosse to cost about the same. I'll go out and say that for UND to add lacrosse they would need $60 million endowment.

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37 minutes ago, cberkas said:

For just men's lacrosse it will run $2-$1 million, so I'd expect women's lacrosse to cost about the same. I'll go out and say that for UND to add lacrosse they would need $60 million endowment.

Been through this before with you.  U of Utah has a higher tuition and cost ($42k for out of state) yet they endowed their men’s lax  with $15.6 million.  UND likely can’t start men’s lax without a conference, as there isnt one out west past Marquette, as scheduling would be so difficult.  Maybe in a few years.  Lax is so much cheaper than hockey - only about 66% of scholarships, we have indoor venues without ice requirements, lower coaching salaries, and equipment consists of helmets (for men), eye protection for women, shoes, and uniforms.  The equipment and uniforms would be paid for by NIKE or Adidas.

The MPSF is begging for women’s teams as it only has three right now.  Dump tennis and golf and start a women’s team.  Either M&W lax would bring in out state enrollment.  Since they are not full scholarship, UND could actually break even on them just for tuition.  Tennis or golf are always losing propositions and attract little to no interest and don’t enhance enrollment.

Get programs that have a net positive cash flow for UND.  If some tennis or golf people want to endow those programs, that is a game changer.

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Just now, SiouxVolley said:

Been through this before with you.  U of Utah has a higher tuition and cost ($42k for out of state) yet they endowed their men’s lax  with $15.6 million.  UND likely can’t start men’s lax without a conference, as there isnt one out west past Marquette, as scheduling would be so difficult.  Maybe in a few years.  Lax is so much cheaper than hockey - only about 66% of scholarships, we have indoor venues without ice requirements, lower coaching salaries, and equipment consists of helmets (for men), eye protection for women, shoes, and uniforms.  The equipment and uniforms would be paid for by NIKE or Adidas.

The MPSF is begging for women’s teams as it only has three right now.  Dump tennis and golf and start a women’s team.  Either M&W lax would bring in out state enrollment.  Since they are not full scholarship, UND could actually break even on them just for tuition.  Tennis or golf are always losing propositions and attract little to no interest and don’t enhance enrollment.

Get programs that have a net positive cash flow for UND.  If some tennis or golf people want to endow those programs, that is a game changer.

It is still going to cost $2 million a season with no guarantee that you will make any revenue. Denver made $1 in revenue for a program that costs $2 million, Notre Dame lost money from their $2 million lacrosse program.

Utah's program is going to cost $2 million also.  

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19 minutes ago, cberkas said:

It is still going to cost $2 million a season with no guarantee that you will make any revenue. Denver made $1 in revenue for a program that costs $2 million, Notre Dame lost money from their $2 million lacrosse program.

Utah's program is going to cost $2 million also.  

$2 million is for private school programs.  The scholarships costs are nearly $750k for those schools and they can just waive tuition on their books, which public schools can’t.  DU’s coach make $250 k per year because they wanted maybe the best coach in the college world.  Most lax coaches make around $100 k and less for women’s coaches.  Comparing private school athetic costs to public is a major no-no.

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1 hour ago, cberkas said:

For just men's lacrosse it will run $2-$1 million, so I'd expect women's lacrosse to cost about the same. I'll go out and say that for UND to add lacrosse they would need $60 million endowment.

If it costs that much people will argue why spend money on lacrosse when you can spend it on women’s hockey. 

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5 minutes ago, darell1976 said:

If it costs that much people will argue why spend money on lacrosse when you can spend it on women’s hockey. 

In the east it is way cheaper, now if there were teams closer to the Midwest/West the cost would be a lot less.

This is old, but should give you an idea.

http://www.diycollegerankings.com/much-colleges-spend-d1-mens-lacrosse-programs-2/7471/

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On 4/14/2018 at 7:39 PM, cberkas said:

In the east it is way cheaper, now if there were teams closer to the Midwest/West the cost would be a lot less.

Well, ... yes. It's the old, single-word answer. Travel. 

Bus leagues are cheaper than having to fly everywhere. 

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On 4/14/2018 at 7:34 PM, darell1976 said:

If it costs that much people will argue why spend money on lacrosse when you can spend it on women’s hockey. 

Because it might actually gate some revenue? Yes, pure speculation, but the WIH numbers are not much of a target to try to exceed. 

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On 4/14/2018 at 6:32 PM, SiouxVolley said:

The MPSF is begging for women’s teams as it only has three right now.  Dump tennis and golf and start a women’s team.  Either M&W lax would bring in out state enrollment.  Since they are not full scholarship, UND could actually break even on them just for tuition.  Tennis or golf are always losing propositions and attract little to no interest and don’t enhance enrollment.

Las season, women's golf gave out 4.6 scholarships with 9 players on the roster, meaning they "brought in" around 4.4 "units" of tuition dollars while showing a Net loss of $171K. There was one ND player on the roster out of 9.

Women's tennis gave out 4.4 scholarships and their were 13 players on the roster. They "brought in" 8.6 "units" of tuition dollars while showing a Net loss of $222K loss. 5 of the 13 players were from ND.

Using your formula of offsetting losses with non-scholarship tuition dollars, I'd say both of these programs are actually doing pretty decent. Average NCAA women's lacrosse team has 30 players and they can give up to 12 scholarships, leaving 18 "units" of tuition they would "bring in". So you're cutting 2 sports to gain roughly 5 tuition "units", while the budget for lacrosse is at least double what women's tennis and golf are currently costing (combined for $513K in total expenses in 2017).  I don't think the math pencils out on this one.

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1 hour ago, jdub27 said:

I don't think the math pencils out on this one.

Would including tertiary costs like:
- one coaching staff instead of two
- not having to use (rent?) the GF tennis center
- not having to use (rent?) King's Walk
- a comparison of travel (two teams vs. one) 
change the math significantly? 

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30 minutes ago, The Sicatoka said:

Would including tertiary costs like:
- one coaching staff instead of two
- not having to use (rent?) the GF tennis center
- not having to use (rent?) King's Walk
- a comparison of travel (two teams vs. one) 
change the math significantly? 

I used the actual 2016-2017 numbers for WT and WG, which combined for expenses of just over $500K.

I just used the estimated budget of $1 million that was thrown around. I'd guess that UND's total expense would be slightly above average due to travel expenses, so that is probably a fair estimate.

So you're looking at roughly an extra $400-500K in expenses while gaining somewhere around the equivalency of 5 more tuition units/year. That doesn't make up the difference in costs.

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The math doesn’t pencil in for M or W lax unless noninvited walk-ons are included.  It’s part of the reason why small southern DI schools offer it when locally lax hardly registers.

How many kids want to walk on for tennis or golf for a shot at getting better?  Those kids already go south.  

The closest lax school is Marquette, which is much more expensive.  If 50 gals or 80 guys were on campus just for a chance at lax, that would greatly improve the financials.  That’s not including their friends or even boy/girl friends that would come too.

There is only a few sports where UND could attract uninvited walk-ons in sufficient numbers to make a financial difference.  Lax, synchronized skating (Miami has it), curling, and maybe a few other

To get more home games, NDSU or SDSU would probably have to start lax too, as teams often schedule two games over an extended weekend.  That’s the appeal downside.

Lax would appeal to Minnesota kids who have essentially no choice for DI lax except a couple of MiAC DIII programs.  The very existence of it would put UND in a “cool” category for many Minnesota kids.  That’s one way to grow enrollment.  Almost any other sport there are many more choices as well as DII, DIII, NAIA and JC.

 

 

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I covered all of that:

  • The average D1 lacrosse program has 30 players on it (actually 28.5, but I'll round up), they can give up to 12 scholarships, meaning you're getting the equivalency of 18 people paying tuition.
  • WG and WT gave out 9 scholarships and had 22 players on their roster, meaning the equivalency of 13 were paying tuition (though I believe that number increased by 1 or 2 this year).
  • A net gain of 5 people paying tuition (even if it is out of state), does not cover what is between a $400-500K difference in expenses (average budget is $917K and due to travel, UND's would likely be fairly high).

I don't think you're going to get an additional 20 people beyond the average size roster to come to UND to walk on to the program, but that's just my opinion. There wasn't a single school out of the 108 schools that offer women's lacrosse that had 50 players on the roster. In fact, only 5 had over 40 (Syracuse, Michigan, Elon, OSU, and UNC) and only 10 more had over 35.

Like I said, the math doesn't pencil out for gaining more revenue (or losing less money) than that sports currently offered.

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7 hours ago, jdub27 said:

I covered all of that:

  • The average D1 lacrosse program has 30 players on it (actually 28.5, but I'll round up), they can give up to 12 scholarships, meaning you're getting the equivalency of 18 people paying tuition.
  • WG and WT gave out 9 scholarships and had 22 players on their roster, meaning the equivalency of 13 were paying tuition (though I believe that number increased by 1 or 2 this year).
  • A net gain of 5 people paying tuition (even if it is out of state), does not cover what is between a $400-500K difference in expenses (average budget is $917K and due to travel, UND's would likely be fairly high).

I don't think you're going to get an additional 20 people beyond the average size roster to come to UND to walk on to the program, but that's just my opinion. There wasn't a single school out of the 108 schools that offer women's lacrosse that had 50 players on the roster. In fact, only 5 had over 40 (Syracuse, Michigan, Elon, OSU, and UNC) and only 10 more had over 35.

Like I said, the math doesn't pencil out for gaining more revenue (or losing less money) than that sports currently offered.

It is amazing how we don’t at all see the same thing after all the exchanges.  Either you are not reading, don’t have vision or I’m not communicating.

DI lax would be a first for a multi-state region and would bring a cultural change to UND just like hockey did.  A DI lax program would bring in lax camps and be a regional beacon for kid playing lax.  Univited walk-ons would naturally gravitate and stay for their college careers.  UND has the indoor facilities to make it happen.  Kids that don’t make varsity can play on a club team and then try out the next year.  Kids that want to be pilots and lax players now have a national choice.  Even getting a hundred kids based on lax at UND would be a major accomplishment.  UND won’t ever be a regional center for tennis or golf or baseball that will attract Minneapolis kids unless a massive dome is built over Grand Forks,  NDSU and SDSU have poo-posed hockey and specifically UND hockey for generations, but the youth in both those cities see the XDSU leadership as old farts that are stuck in their mud.

Lax is not a passing fad.  It’s grown stronger for at least 20 years and is being embrace internationally to the point the Olympics may make it a sport.

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57 minutes ago, SiouxVolley said:

Lax is not a passing fad.  It’s grown stronger for at least 20 years and is being embrace internationally to the point the Olympics may make it a sport.

So you're saying we could have.... OLYMPIANS?!?!?

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3 hours ago, UNDBIZ said:

So you're saying we could have.... OLYMPIANS?!?!?

Lax is even more diverse geographically, but a Dave Christian, Toews, or Oshie is possible from our region.

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Mens lacrosse efforts are to be an Olympic sport in 2024 at the earliest, but probably 2028.  The world championships are this year in Israel.

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Lacrosse has become the sport in some regions for the kids that are missing that one piece* to play football (or hockey). We all knew that person who was great at football to a level but was then too small-framed to continue. We all knew that centerfielder who could run and catch but hated contact or the third-baseman with phenomenal eye-hand (fielding or hitting) and an awesome first two steps but couldn't really go first-to-home ... even on a triple**.  

 

*Size, speed, hands, head, vision. 
** Guilty. :D

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I love how this board has came up with a creative idea to boost UND athletics. However, realistically I feel this will never happen. It's very hard for universities to add sports, especially something like lax which requires biggish rosters and niche equipment. I hope to eat my words because it would be a great addition, but just dont believe it will happen. Saying that, I would contribute to a Lax fund if established. 

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James Madison won the DI women’s lacrosse championship today.  Guess even FCS schools can win against the big boy or girls.

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