[HockeyMom]

PCM, on Sep 27 2005, 09:28 PM, said:

dagies, on Sep 27 2005, 08:19 PM, said:

Who knows.  I'm reading a whole lot into this.  Just a gut feeling.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My gut agrees with your gut.

I agree with your feelings, guys. I read that as VERY encouraging. Sounds like they want to form their own opinions, with no outside influence.

[Sioux-cia]

On WDAZ 10p news, Spirit Lake MIGHT meet with Kup next week.

[PCM]

From USA Today:

N. Dakota at center of 'hostile' debate

Quote

For some, The Ralph is a wonderful gift from a loyal benefactor who believed strongly in the "Fighting Sioux" spirit of teamwork and tradition.

But for those on the other side of the debate about the proper use of American Indian symbols and names, the arena is a citadel of hate and intolerance.

Quote

Lucy Ganje, a member of the art department faculty, displays several T-shirts that were worn on campus by both UND supporters and fans from rival schools. A shirt for supporters shows a crude caricature of a male Indian having sexual relations with a bison, the symbol of archrival North Dakota State University. An NDSU shirt counters with an even more obscene sexual scene involving an Indian cartoon character and a bison.

"Native people won't go to sporting events because their families, their children, are exposed to these things," Ganje says. "The university just tells them to turn the shirts inside-out, but once they get to their seats, they turn them out again."

[redwing77]

PCM, on Sep 28 2005, 07:34 AM, said:

From USA Today:

N. Dakota at center of 'hostile' debate

Quote

For some, The Ralph is a wonderful gift from a loyal benefactor who believed strongly in the "Fighting Sioux" spirit of teamwork and tradition.

But for those on the other side of the debate about the proper use of American Indian symbols and names, the arena is a citadel of hate and intolerance.

Quote

Lucy Ganje, a member of the art department faculty, displays several T-shirts that were worn on campus by both UND supporters and fans from rival schools. A shirt for supporters shows a crude caricature of a male Indian having sexual relations with a bison, the symbol of archrival North Dakota State University. An NDSU shirt counters with an even more obscene sexual scene involving an Indian cartoon character and a bison.

"Native people won't go to sporting events because their families, their children, are exposed to these things," Ganje says. "The university just tells them to turn the shirts inside-out, but once they get to their seats, they turn them out again."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very interesting.

Have you ever seen any of these T Shirts? I've never seen them at Hockey events but I admit I haven't been to many basketball and football events to make a judgement.

EDIT: Have to add this: Isn't it funny that, instead of installing a rule that bans those things from the event, they just want to change the name instead? Do they understand that PEOPLE do those things and not a NAME?

[mksioux]

The reporter -- for some perspective -- would have pressed Ganje as to the dates the shirts were confiscated. I bet most are 10 years old or older.

The same exact issue came up at Moorhead State about 10 years ago with a tee-shirt depicting a Dragon having sexual relations with a Cobber cheerleader. That kind of juvenile idiocy has nothing to do with the Sioux nickname.

[PCM]

redwing77, on Sep 28 2005, 07:17 AM, said:

Have you ever seen any of these T Shirts?

Given the fact that it's been many decades since UND played NDSU in hockey, I doubt that you've ever seen them inside the Ralph.

This article slanders UND and the citizens of Grand Forks.

[ScottM]

Quote

The most hurtful comments at American Indian students are the taunts of "Prairie N——-," she says.

"It's difficult to stay here, but there are so many wonderful programs brought here by native people. It is important that we don't run away."

Yes, and I'm sure you've heard those comments only at UND.

And I'm sure the "native people" did not bring all of those programs to campus, so much as benefit from them. Apparently, your native state doesn't see the same need to offer them as UND.

[HockeyMom]

I haven't seen one of those bright yellow shirts since before I went to college.

That was a few years back.

AND I do seem to recall seeing NDSU SUCKS t's somewhere along the line also. In fact, I think I still own one.

[PCM]

Here's the e-mail address for letters to the editor at USA Today: editor@usatoday.com

Quote

“Letters most likely to be published are timely, brief and direct. ... All will be read, but, as much as we'd like to, we can't publish or acknowledge them all. Include your name, address, day and evening phone numbers for verification and, if you wish, your photo for possible publication.”

[PCM]

From today's Grand Forks Herald:

UND NICKNAME: NCAA wants a clear stance

Quote

The NCAA says it's getting mixed signals from one of three North Dakota Sioux Indian nations regarding its stand on UND's Fighting Sioux nickname and Indian-head logo.

Bob Williams, NCAA spokesman, said that the Spirit Lake Nation near Devils Lake, as of late Tuesday, had not responded to the association's calls for clarification.

"Really, what we would like to do is get an official position from the Spirit Lake tribe, and we've attempted to do that for the last several weeks," Williams said.

[PCM]

ScottM, on Sep 28 2005, 08:19 AM, said:

Yes, and I'm sure you've heard those comments only at UND. 
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'd like to hear other people's experiences with the term "prairie n______."

I grew up in South Dakota, a state with a large American Indian population in a town with a significant number of American Indians. I lived in Bismarck for 15 years before moving to Grand Forks in 1992.

Until I came to Grand Forks, I'd never heard anyone refer to Native Americans by this term. What's even more interesting is that the only time I hear the term used now is when the change-the-name crowd complains about others using it.

So what's going on? Do I live a sheltered life? Don't I get out enough? Am I hanging out with the wrong crowd? Is it simply a lucky coincidence that I've never heard anyone other than the anti-Sioux forces use it?

[HockeyMom]

The first time I ever heard it was when it was used in an example on this board.

[dagies]

PCM, on Sep 28 2005, 08:39 AM, said:

From today's Grand Forks Herald:

UND NICKNAME: NCAA wants a clear stance

Quote

The NCAA says it's getting mixed signals from one of three North Dakota Sioux Indian nations regarding its stand on UND's Fighting Sioux nickname and Indian-head logo.

Bob Williams, NCAA spokesman, said that the Spirit Lake Nation near Devils Lake, as of late Tuesday, had not responded to the association's calls for clarification.

"Really, what we would like to do is get an official position from the Spirit Lake tribe, and we've attempted to do that for the last several weeks," Williams said.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think Kupchella provided them with documentation of an "official position" did he not? Sounds to me like the NCAA is frustrated with Spirit Lake as well. They're not getting what they wanted, and what they so desperately need....Spirit Lake's revocation of support. Spirit Lake is tired of GrahamKracker, UND, and the NCAA all busting their chops for not throwing support in whichever direction. If ever I would feel empathy for a group just going turtle and ignoring the rest of the world, it's the SL tribe.

[PCM]

dagies, on Sep 28 2005, 08:55 AM, said:

Spirit Lake is tired of GrahamKracker, UND, and the NCAA all busting their chops for not throwing support in whichever direction.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you're right, except for the UND part. I doubt that the university is doing much, if any, lobbying of the tribe. I suspect that the vast majority of the pressure is coming from the other side.

[ScottM]

PCM, on Sep 28 2005, 08:50 AM, said:

I'd like to hear other people's experiences with the term "prairie n______."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

First time, and probably only time, I heard it was in NW NoDak by the younger brother of my college room mate to describe some people from the Fort Berthold reservation. I don't recall ever hearing it on campus. As a matter of fact, I don't recall any conversations centering around "new, creative" epithets for Indians, contrary to what Gange and Jeanotte might suggest.

I heard more derogatory portrayals and comments about Indians when I moved to "enlightened, liberal" DT Mpls than when I was on campus.

[rochsioux]

dagies, on Sep 28 2005, 09:55 AM, said:

PCM, on Sep 28 2005, 08:39 AM, said:

From today's Grand Forks Herald:

UND NICKNAME: NCAA wants a clear stance

Quote

The NCAA says it's getting mixed signals from one of three North Dakota Sioux Indian nations regarding its stand on UND's Fighting Sioux nickname and Indian-head logo.

Bob Williams, NCAA spokesman, said that the Spirit Lake Nation near Devils Lake, as of late Tuesday, had not responded to the association's calls for clarification.

"Really, what we would like to do is get an official position from the Spirit Lake tribe, and we've attempted to do that for the last several weeks," Williams said.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think Kupchella provided them with documentation of an "official position" did he not? Sounds to me like the NCAA is frustrated with Spirit Lake as well. They're not getting what they wanted, and what they so desperately need....Spirit Lake's revocation of support. Spirit Lake is tired of GrahamKracker, UND, and the NCAA all busting their chops for not throwing support in whichever direction. If ever I would feel empathy for a group just going turtle and ignoring the rest of the world, it's the SL tribe.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Could it be that the NC$$ is really looking for an "out" on this issue ? I am beginning to think they are hoping that Spirit Lake will restate their support for the name and logo use, then use that as justification for an exemption. They already have plenty of documented support against the name and logo from other tribes. Spirit Lake is the one that supported it back in 2000 but now is wavering and the NCAA knows that. They don't want to use the 2000 resolution knowing that discussions have taken place to revoke. They would again look like idiots if they gave UND the exemption based on the 2000 resolution only to have the tribe pull their support soon after. I am sure the NC$$ would like to avoid the courts on this issue so they need to know where Spirit Lake stands, they will decide the issue. If they come out and officially recind their support, based on the NC$$'s previous press releases I think they will have no choice but to deny UND the exemption. If Spirit Lake reaffirms their support, then the NC$$ can use this as justification to get them out of a court case. It appears the NC$$ is waiting on Spirit Lake prior to ruling on UND's petition. If Spirit Lake reaffirms their support and the NC$$ still denies the petition, then what was the point in waiting on Spirit Lake, they already had the 2000 resolution in hand that supported the name ? So I think that a new resolution will come from Spirit Lake and that will be the tipping point. Which way it goes is anyones guess.

[Sioux-cia]

HockeyMom, on Sep 28 2005, 08:55 AM, said:

The first time I ever heard it was when it was used in an example on this board.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Me, too. I believe the reference was made by either Kracker or KnowFacts.

[ScottM]

Quote

Could it be that the NC$$ is really looking for an "out" on this issue ? I am beginning to think they are hoping that Spirit Lake will restate their support for the name and logo use, then use that as justification for an exemption. They already have plenty of documented support against the name and logo from other tribes. Spirit Lake is the one that supported it back in 2000 but now is wavering and the NCAA knows that. They don't want to use the 2000 resolution knowing that discussions have taken place to revoke. They would again look like idiots if they gave UND the exemption based on the 2000 resolution only to have the tribe pull their support soon after.

And that is a perfect example of why the NC$$'s "logic" of using tribal support is so problematic, especially when tribes an Indians themselves can have differing views, contrary to what certain people may think.

If the Utes or Seminoles decide they no longer support the schools' usage, can the NC$$ rescind their exemptions? Are the schools and the NC$$ leaving themselves hostage to changing tribal agendas, whims, mores, etc.? I agree the NC$$ is definitely looking to scrape away the paint they've taken into the corner with them. Frankly, the fact that the SL folks haven't yet come out and said anything, one way or another, demonstrates how divided Indians themselves are on the issue. If they renounce or reaffirm the 2000 resolution, who's to say the next leadership won't reverse it soon after. It's an idiotic way to support an idiotic policy.

[dagies]

PCM, on Sep 28 2005, 09:04 AM, said:

dagies, on Sep 28 2005, 08:55 AM, said:

Spirit Lake is tired of GrahamKracker, UND, and the NCAA all busting their chops for not throwing support in whichever direction.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you're right, except for the UND part. I doubt that the university is doing much, if any, lobbying of the tribe. I suspect that the vast majority of the pressure is coming from the other side.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you're probably right. And maybe I should have stated it as people urging SL to support the nickname. I would guess the pressure from the "other" side is much greater, however.

[sioux7]

PCM, on Sep 28 2005, 09:15 AM, said:

redwing77, on Sep 28 2005, 07:17 AM, said:

Have you ever seen any of these T Shirts?

Given the fact that it's been many decades since UND played NDSU in hockey, I doubt that you've ever seen them inside the Ralph.

This article slanders UND and the citizens of Grand Forks.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I just love how reporting these days is soooo one sided.......on any issue where sides are taken. I have no problem with someone writing about the whole logo issue but TELL BOTH SIDES OF THE STORY. This is happening on every single article written on this. My favorite part of this is the quote of "only a little over 400 of the students are Native Americans" and the part about the young lady saying that the Native American people "have brought programs to the university" If I'm not mistaken, doesn't the university create the programs? PCM, you are correct. This is a classic case of slander.