[Runninwiththedogs]

Sioux-cia, on Sep 13 2005, 08:25 AM, said:

Runninwiththedogs, on Sep 12 2005, 11:54 PM, said:

Diggler, on Sep 12 2005, 10:25 PM, said:

If that girl is a sophmore, what the hell was she doing at bars?
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In Champaign, you only have to be 19 to get into the bars. GOD I LOVED COLLEGE.
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Unless things changed (again) and that is certainly possible, the legal drinking age in Illinois is 21. It used to be 21 several years ago, then it was lowered to 19. It was then raised to 21 again around 1980.
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You are very right about the drinking age, it is 21 in Champaign, but to gain admission to the bars, you have to be 19. Of course, what you do once you're in there is your own problem.

Doc Holliday, on Sep 13 2005, 01:39 PM, said:

Sioux-cia, on Sep 13 2005, 08:25 AM, said:

Unless things changed (again) and that is certainly possible, the legal drinking age in Illinois is 21.  It used to be 21 several years ago, then it was lowered to 19.  It was then raised to 21 again around 1980.
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I'm guessing he was referring to getting in to all the bars.

The drinking age is a federal law. It used to be a state law until the federal government said that unless states move it up to 21, they wouldn't get funding from the federal government for certain programs. Naturally all states followed to get the funding and it since has become a federal law.
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SHE. I'm a GIRL.

[Goon]

PCM, on Sep 13 2005, 06:26 PM, said:

My e-mail to Seth Davis at SI.com:

Quote

If, as Leigh Jeanotte claims, the use of American Indian nicknames is a moral, ethical and civil rights issue on the order of slavery or women's suffrage, why does the University of North Dakota have more than twice as many Native American students as any other university in the region? Why, when protests of the Sioux nickname are held, do fewer than 100 protestors march, (a high percentage of them white) on a campus with more than 400 American Indian students? Why do 61% of American Indians in North Dakota say they're not offended by UND's use of the Sioux nickname? Why would an American Indian artist design UND's logo? Why would a university that's "hostile and abusive" to American Indians create so many educational opportunities for them? It appears to me that you have left many facts out of your disingenuous column.

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Pat,
you will never get a response back because he won't have an answer that is even close to being intellegent. Great piece. I wounder if GK can refute it or come up with an answer? Probably not...

I also think that Leigh Jeanotte is a poser and is trying to make a name for himself and further his agenda, Jeanotte and his vocal minority have been trying to pick a fight with the pro-name change crowd and this is his best chance to stuff his views down our throat. I say UND stand its ground and sue the NCAA if we lose the appeal. UND can't just give in because of a vocal minority wants something. This is a shake down in my opinion. Its almost like Jessie Jackson himself is pulling the strings on this one.

This post has been edited by Goon: 13 September 2005 - 06:00 PM

[redwing77]

Goon, on Sep 13 2005, 06:54 PM, said:

PCM, on Sep 13 2005, 06:26 PM, said:

My e-mail to Seth Davis at SI.com:

Quote

If, as Leigh Jeanotte claims, the use of American Indian nicknames is a moral, ethical and civil rights issue on the order of slavery or women's suffrage, why does the University of North Dakota have more than twice as many Native American students as any other university in the region? Why, when protests of the Sioux nickname are held, do fewer than 100 protestors march, (a high percentage of them white) on a campus with more than 400 American Indian students? Why do 61% of American Indians in North Dakota say they're not offended by UND's use of the Sioux nickname? Why would an American Indian artist design UND's logo? Why would a university that's "hostile and abusive" to American Indians create so many educational opportunities for them? It appears to me that you have left many facts out of your disingenuous column.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Pat,
you will never get a response back because he won't have an answer that is even close to being intellegent. Great piece. I wounder if GK can refute it or come up with an answer? Probably not...

I also think that Leigh Jeanotte is a poser and is trying to make a name for himself and further his agenda, Jeanotte and his vocal minority have been trying to pick a fight with the pro-name change crowd and this is his best chance to stuff his views down our throat. I say UND stand its ground and sue the NCAA if we lose the appeal. UND can't just give in because of a vocal minority wants something. This is a shake down in my opinion. Its almost like Jessie Jackson himself is pulling the strings on this one.
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Will the NCAA ever make a ruling? It's getting ridiculous!

[Goon]

redwing77, on Sep 13 2005, 07:10 PM, said:

Will the NCAA ever make a ruling?  It's getting ridiculous!
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Its like pee or get off the pot already.

[Sioux-cia]

Runninwiththedogs, on Sep 13 2005, 05:44 PM, said:

You are very right about the drinking age, it is 21 in Champaign, but to gain admission to the bars, you have to be 19. Of course, what you do once you're in there is your own problem.
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DANG!! And all that time I thought I was being really sneaky!

[HockeyMom]

Goon, on Sep 13 2005, 06:13 PM, said:

redwing77, on Sep 13 2005, 07:10 PM, said:

Will the NCAA ever make a ruling?  It's getting ridiculous!
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Its like pee or get off the pot already.
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Yeah we wanna Sioux you, NCAA.

[A.B.T.G.]

And the NC$$ ruling is....

[PCM]

Doreen Yellow Bird has a column about the Sioux name issue in today's Grand Forks Herald.

Sioux City stays if UND Sioux goes

Quote

Once upon a time, there is a gang that called themselves "The Snakes." They gave themselves this name to inspire fear and trembling in rival gangs. (That was good reasoning, by the way. If you said "Snakes suck" in their presence, you'd better be itching for a fight.)

They took this name because snakes, especially poisonous snakes, have a reputation of being dangerous and almost evil.

Calling UND's athletes "Fighting Sioux" serves a similar purpose, but it also says this group of people was warlike. We know the history: In this area, for example, 38 Sioux were hung as punishment for raids that killed settlers.

From PJStar.com:
Drinking it all in with a six-pack

Quote

Public backlash has been more substantial than anticipated. Everyday people were repulsed by the NCAA's harsh words and strong-arm tactics. The organization caved - to a point.

Whether this signals a sea change remains to be seen.

[Sioux-cia]

PCM, on Sep 14 2005, 08:10 AM, said:

Doreen Yellow Bird has a column about the Sioux name issue in today's Grand Forks Herald.
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Quote

I found if you tell them or they experience what happens to Indian people around the name of the Fighting Sioux, they say throw it out - unless, of course, they have an ulterior motive.

Yeah one hundred to thirty years ago!

[

Quote

B]Calling UND's athletes "Fighting Sioux" serves a similar purpose, but it also says this group of people was warlike. We know the history: In this area, for example, 38 Sioux were hung as punishment for raids that killed settlers[/B].

Sioux name supporters believe the strenght and 'warlike' attributes of the Sioux are worthy of respect and honor even though back in the day, they killed settlers. They don't do that anymore, do they?

Quote

It's a bloody history.

Exactly, it's history. History of a war similar to many that took place all over the world when 'new' land was found and ''non-natives' wanted to settle there.

Quote

Some UND fans separate American Indians into two groups: the mythical warrior of the past (for example, the "Fighting Sioux") and Indian people of today, whom they see as alcoholic and poverty-stricken. Go home, take care of those problems and leave the name alone, we are told. It's as if the honor belongs only to the myth.

There is honor in accomplishment. The American Indians who have completed the American Indian programs at UND and gone into the American Indian communities to help change the problems of American Indians are respected and honored.

Quote

When you look for an Indian person to agree that they like the name, you'll find one.

Must that ONE 'hang aroung the fort', 'rabbit choking', 'plantation negro mentality'
American Indian we've been hearing about.

Quote

But I also know some good people who support the name.

I know good people who do not support the name. They don't call me names or put me down or insult me because I do support the name. Nor do they do that to other name supporters including other American Indians.

[ScottM]

Everytime the Hurled prints anything by Doreen YellowBird, on any topic, it just reinforces its tabloid status.

[fightonsioux]

Either the word Sioux is deragatory or its not. Dorreen can't have it both ways. Sioux City represents a city full of humans. If UND Sioux change Sioux City should change.

[dagies]

PCM, on Sep 14 2005, 08:10 AM, said:

Doreen Yellow Bird has a column about the Sioux name issue in today's Grand Forks Herald.

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Quote

Well, Mr. Presidents, it's the difference between buildings, cities, rivers and human beings. I see no city or river feeling insulted when a student stands beside it, cupping his hands and yelling, "Big Sioux River, you suck." Rivers hardly babble at the thought, and a city on the receiving end of such a slur might belch only a little pollution.

The Big Muddy could care less if you dip your toe into her waters and call her filthy and dirty.

Well, the TEAM is named the Fighting Sioux. I doubt they feel bad when a gopher fan yells "Sioux Suck" either. But BOTH examples (someone yelling at a river and someone yelling at a team) require someone to HEAR what is being yelled, and end up offended by it. Doreen's river example doesn't wash. Put GrahamKracker on the bank of that river and he'd go "Fighting Sioux" on you.

Quote

Some UND fans separate American Indians into two groups: the mythical warrior of the past (for example, the "Fighting Sioux") and Indian people of today, whom they see as alcoholic and poverty-stricken. Go home, take care of those problems and leave the name alone, we are told. It's as if the honor belongs only to the myth.

This is what I don't get. When I think of "The Fighting Sioux" I think of Crazy Horse's merry band that wiped out Custer. For UND's sports teams, it's that type of attitude and ability that merits association. And I don't see why this is somehow abusive.

[PCM]

dagies, on Sep 14 2005, 12:38 PM, said:

This is what I don't get.  When I think of "The Fighting Sioux" I think of Crazy Horse's merry band that wiped out Custer.  For UND's sports teams, it's that type of attitude and ability that merits association.  And I don't see why this is somehow abusive.
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It's because you're not literal-minded enough. You're supposed to look at a Sioux athletic team and think, "Hey, wait a minute! Those athletes aren't real Sioux Indians! They're white people! Just what the heck is UND trying to pull here, anyway? I'm offended!"

[PCM]

From the Athens (GA) Banner-Herald:
No plans to rename mascot
La.-Monroe to remain Indians despite NCAA

Quote

Florida State (the Seminoles), Utah (the Utes) and Central Michigan (the Chippewas) were removed from the list after they showed support from local tribes. Lousiana-Monroe plans to appeal as well.

"Obviously we feel we treat the Native Americans with a great deal of respect, especially the tribes here in Louisiana," Louisiana-Monroe athletic director Bobby Staub said. "That's why we are reactivating the (self-study) committee and having them come together and basically state our case and we'll see."

Quote

Louisiana-Monroe has spoken to fellow Sun Belt member Arkansas State, which also has the nickname Indians, about its plans for the appeal process.

[Sioux-cia]

PCM, on Sep 15 2005, 12:36 AM, said:

From the Athens (GA) Banner-Herald:

Quote

Louisiana-Monroe has spoken to fellow Sun Belt member Arkansas State, which also has the nickname Indians, about its plans for the appeal process.

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Maybe we should talk to these Sun Belt schools. As some one has previously mentioned, a class action suit may be the way to go. Our appeal would carry more weight, and the message First Amendment will also have a bigger impact.

[PCM]

A week after the fact, USA Today runs this story:
North Dakota tribes urge NCAA to deny university's appeal

Quote

The Sept. 8 vote came after a United Tribes summit in Bismarck, N.D. The group endorsed a resolution that states, "The name 'Sioux' is derived from a French word which is pejorative in nature and which is offensive to the Tribal Nations who are comprised of people of Lakota, Dakota and Nakota ancestry."

With apologies to Buffalo Springfield: "There's something happening here. What it is ain't exactly clear."

[UND92,96]

PCM, on Sep 15 2005, 11:14 AM, said:

A week after the fact, USA Today runs this story:
North Dakota tribes urge NCAA to deny university's appeal

Quote

The Sept. 8 vote came after a United Tribes summit in Bismarck, N.D. The group endorsed a resolution that states, "The name 'Sioux' is derived from a French word which is pejorative in nature and which is offensive to the Tribal Nations who are comprised of people of Lakota, Dakota and Nakota ancestry."

With apologies to Buffalo Springfield: "There's something happening here. What it is ain't exactly clear."
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can't understand why the origin of the word "Sioux" is even an issue. Obviously, it's not all that offensive to many people who self-identify themselves as such: example 1
example 2
example 3
example 4

[dagies]

PCM, on Sep 15 2005, 10:14 AM, said:

A week after the fact, USA Today runs this story:
North Dakota tribes urge NCAA to deny university's appeal

Quote

The Sept. 8 vote came after a United Tribes summit in Bismarck, N.D. The group endorsed a resolution that states, "The name 'Sioux' is derived from a French word which is pejorative in nature and which is offensive to the Tribal Nations who are comprised of people of Lakota, Dakota and Nakota ancestry."

With apologies to Buffalo Springfield: "There's something happening here. What it is ain't exactly clear."
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, I DON'T think the word Sioux is offensive to the Tribal Nations, considering how many refer to themselves as Sioux. Whatever the origins of the word, the negative connotation long ago lost its meaning. Anyone heard of Yankee Doodle Dandy? The British penned that ditty to make fun of the colonists. Funny, it's part of our national song library now. In fact, there are various reports of the origin of the term Yankee. One option says it was a derogatory term for soldiers in the Revolutionary army. Anyone heard of the New York Yankees?

Time changes things, and any offense being taken by the word Sioux at this point in time, IMO, is voluntarily assumed by the offended person. Considering it wasn't long ago that the casino (Prairie Knights?) was named the Dakota Sioux Casino, I think I can rest my argument right there.

[HockeyMom]

dagies, on Sep 15 2005, 10:20 AM, said:

Considering it wasn't long ago that the casino (Prairie Knights?) was named the Dakota Sioux Casino, I think I can rest my argument right there.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[sarcasm] Only the TRUE SIOUX can call themselves SIOUX! [/sarcasm]

[Sioux-cia]

PCM, on Sep 15 2005, 10:14 AM, said:

A week after the fact, USA Today runs this story:
North Dakota tribes urge NCAA to deny university's appeal

Quote

The Sept. 8 vote came after a United Tribes summit in Bismarck, N.D. The group endorsed a resolution that states, "The name 'Sioux' is derived from a French word which is pejorative in nature and which is offensive to the Tribal Nations who are comprised of people of Lakota, Dakota and Nakota ancestry."

With apologies to Buffalo Springfield: "There's something happening here. What it is ain't exactly clear."
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just a thought, just a little Hmmmm. Since the name 'Sioux' is 'pejorative in nature' and 'is offensive to the tribal Nations', why aren't the American Indians (and the NC$$) who are offended by the word 'Sioux', lobbying to not be referred to as 'Sioux' by the state, feds, etc. These agencies, not UND, actually named this Tribal Nation, this population of American Indians, 'Sioux'. UND has named their athletic teams 'Sioux'. The athletes, to the best of my knowledge, are not offended by being referred to as 'Sioux'.
Just a thought.