[Sioux-cia]

star2city, on Apr 23 2007, 07:06 PM, said:

If a business choses not to advertise on Imus' or any other show, that is its perogative, IMHO. By the same token, placing random declarations on what is abusive or offensive (NCAA's view toward the Fighting Sioux name) is an entirely different matter. No UND advertisers are threatening to remove their support because of the Sioux name. If that happens (doubt it ever would), then the free market and public opinion have spoken, which is the way the world should work.

So you don't see a connection?

All news services are dependent on money from advertisers/donors. If a money source doesn't like the way the news is presented or doesn't like the news, should the news service change the facts even though it's the wrong thing to do? If they don't, they don't get money and then they can't present the news anyway. You're saying that we are subject to the money sources views on what is 'good news' and what is 'unacceptable news.

The NC$$ is telling some institutions of higher learning what is 'hostile or abusive' in names. logos, mascots. If we don't agree with them, we don't get to play in their post season games unless we change. We don't change, we can't play. We change, we are agreeing with their opinion on what is 'hostile or abusive'.

Is that the public opinion and free market talking or money?

[star2city]

Sioux-cia, on Apr 23 2007, 11:09 PM, said:

All news services are dependent on money from advertisers/donors. If a money source doesn't like the way the news is presented or doesn't like the news, should the news service change the facts even though it's the wrong thing to do? If they don't, they don't get money and then they can't present the news anyway. You're saying that we are subject to the money sources views on what is 'good news' and what is 'unacceptable news.

The NC$$ is telling some institutions of higher learning what is 'hostile or abusive' in names. logos, mascots. If we don't agree with them, we don't get to play in their post season games unless we change. We don't change, we can't play. We change, we are agreeing with their opinion on what is 'hostile or abusive'.

I see Imus as an entertainment source, much as Fighting Sioux athletics are. My point was that advertisers for NCAA events are not clamoring to quit advertising during NCAA championships because they are offended by Indian images. I see your point, but a better analogy to the NCAA / Indian nickname issue would have been if Imus was fired by CBS and the advertisers were clamoring to keep him.

[GeauxSioux]

Quiet leaders who are willing to make difficult decisions

Quote

Kudos first to novelist Louise Erdrich, who quietly turned down an honorary degree from the University of North Dakota because she objects to the nickname "Fighting Sioux." Erdrich is one of North Dakota's greatest artists.

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At some point the leadership at UND will realize that the prize for poor sportsmanship and illiberal stubbornness is simply too high.

It's amazing how she is lauded for standing by her principles, yet she chastises UND for standing up against the NCAA for being "labeled" "hostile and abusive". BTW, the definition of illiberal is "Narrow-minded; bigoted."

[The Sicatoka]

[quote]It is quite possible that eminent scholars will refuse to be recruited by UND until the name is changed to something more benign, that celebrated writers, both Indian and non-Indian, will refuse to attend the annual UND writers' conference, and that some foundations will refuse to make grants to UND given its intransigence on an issue so peripheral to the outstanding intellectual work that occurs there.[/quote]

Something "more benign"? You mean something everyone can agree on? Heck, SDSU can't agree on a picture of a bunny-wabbit for a new logo! Can it get more benign (or inane)? As a wise man once said,

[quote]"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- William Henry "Bill" Cosby, Jr., Ph.D.[/quote]

And if this is so much the possibility, why hasn't this been happening since the 1970s (or before)?

And finally, "on an issue so peripheral" ... indeed. If this is so peripheral why is it an issue at all. The noted scholar may have just put one through the hull of his own intellectual battleship.

[ScottM]

I thought Erdrich has been trolling around Minneapolis for the past 10-15 years or so. So, I doubt she has any real connection to NoDak or UND. Moreover, her divorce proceedings from Michael Dorris, and some of the accusations against her by her kid, make me wonder why UND would even bother giving her the honor.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

Quote

It is quite possible that eminent scholars will refuse to be recruited by UND until the name is changed to something more benign...

And of course, the judges of exactly what is and is not "benign" will be.... who?

Quote

and that some foundations will refuse to make grants

Others may choose to give grants because you refuse to kotow to the PC patrol. And others may drop their grants if you do change nicknames. Any real numbers here?

Quote

to UND given its intransigence on an issue so peripheral to the outstanding intellectual work that occurs there.

Why is it that the issue should be peripheral to those who support the nickname: but its a given that the nickname is somehow a lifelong cause to those who don't like it? Where's the logic there?

[Chewey]

It looks like the rubes are at it again. Of the 20 schools or so on the NC00 hit list, UND is the only one who is remaining non-compliant and it stands alone in that non-compliance. UND has the backbone to fight an inequitable and nonsensical "policy" and the GF Fishwrap reporters try to convey that it is the outcast? I'm sure that the vast majority of the GF residents don't buy this sewage.

[Goon]

Chewey, on Jun 10 2007, 10:01 AM, said:

It looks like the rubes are at it again. Of the 20 schools or so on the NC00 hit list, UND is the only one who is remaining non-compliant and it stands alone in that non-compliance. UND has the backbone to fight an inequitable and nonsensical "policy" and the GF Fishwrap reporters try to convey that it is the outcast? I'm sure that the vast majority of the GF residents don't buy this sewage.

They will never go away, they have an agenda and until UND surrenders to the PC Zealots they will continue to put up with this crap...

[ScottM]

This guy's obviously attended Doreen Yellowbird's course on "Logic and Writing".

Quote

Educational institutions are supposed be places where students come to unlearn the racial stereotyping that such logos represent. As such, consider the $430,000 that UND already has spent on its lawsuit against the NCAA. The “Fighting Sioux” name is going to change regardless of the outcome of the case.

In reference to the money, Leigh Jeanotte, director of American Indian Student Services at UND said, “There are so many things (programs to help Indians stay in school, for example) that we could use that money for.

Linky


Sure Leigh, keep dreaming.

[Goon]

ScottM, on Jun 10 2007, 01:32 PM, said:

This guy's obviously attended Doreen Yellowbird's course on "Logic and Writing".

Quote

Educational institutions are supposed be places where students come to unlearn the racial stereotyping that such logos represent. As such, consider the $430,000 that UND already has spent on its lawsuit against the NCAA. The “Fighting Sioux” name is going to change regardless of the outcome of the case.

In reference to the money, Leigh Jeanotte, director of American Indian Student Services at UND said, “There are so many things (programs to help Indians stay in school, for example) that we could use that money for.

Linky


Sure Leigh, keep dreaming.

I just don't know how he can make that statement?

[HockeyMom]

Quote

In reference to the money, Leigh Jeanotte, director of American Indian Student Services at UND said, “There are so many things (programs to help Indians stay in school, for example) that we could use that money for.

How much money has the NCAA wasted on this lawsuit and how come no one's complaining about that money and how it could be better spent? The NCAA started this.

[Chewey]

HockeyMom, on Jun 10 2007, 03:20 PM, said:

Quote

In reference to the money, Leigh Jeanotte, director of American Indian Student Services at UND said, “There are so many things (programs to help Indians stay in school, for example) that we could use that money for.

How much money has the NCAA wasted on this lawsuit and how come no one's complaining about that money and how it could be better spent? The NCAA started this.

That's a very, very good point. Money spent to enforce the PC propaganda and to eradicate "abuses" that never existed in the first place is just fine, I guess.

[Sioux-cia]

ScottM, on Jun 10 2007, 11:32 AM, said:

Linky

Quote

The people who are best qualified to answer how something affects them are the ones who are suffering from it the most.

I asked SS.com members who are Sioux Name Change supporters, more than once, "How is the name and logo hurting Sioux Indians? How is the name and logo contributing to their suffering?" They offered no response. Having lived on a Navajo reservation for the past seven and a half months, I can list many reasons that Native Americans are suffering, hurting, etc. A sport team's Native American Indian name and logo is not one of them. I have seen many Navajos displaying 'Red Skins' football clothing, hats, and bumper stickers.

It's so easy to throw out, 'we (they) are suffering because of Native American sports names and logos', 'Native American names and logos for sports teams are hostile and abusive', 'Native American sports names and logos result in prejudicial treatment', etc. Where is the proof?

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Because of attempts to change the mascot and logo many American Indian students, the resolution claims, were harassed, threatened and received death threats. Indian Country Today could not verify the nature of the alleged threats.

http://www.indiancou...m?id=1096411618

One would think if there was proof a Native American publication such as Indian Country Today would be able to verify those 'claims'.

[Sioux-cia]

HockeyMom, on Jun 10 2007, 02:20 PM, said:

Quote

In reference to the money, Leigh Jeanotte, director of American Indian Student Services at UND said, “There are so many things (programs to help Indians stay in school, for example) that we could use that money for.

How much money has the NCAA wasted on this lawsuit and how come no one's complaining about that money and how it could be better spent? The NCAA started this.

What he fails to say is that UND already has as many or more Native American programs than most institutions of higher education in the country, let alone the State of North Dakota and it's bordering states. How many more does he want!?!

AND the money used for the lawsuit is not being deducted from any personal (in my case anyway), educational, state, federal funding originally earmarked for Native American programs. Geeze Louise, when are they going to get it!!!!!!!!!


*edited after error pointed out by HockeyMom! Thanks!*

[dagies]

Somehow, when I saw Nick Coleman had written a column on Roy Saigo, I just knew this would come up:

Quote

One aspect of Saigo's work has not made him popular in North Dakota but has raised sensitivity to racial issues across the country. Appalled by the ruckus that attended each visit of the North Dakota Fighting Sioux hockey team to St. Cloud State, Saigo appealed to the conscience of the NCAA. If universities are to be educators, Saigo argued, the NCAA had to respond to the nickname issue. His prodding ultimately led the NCAA to ban Indian nicknames, although the University of North Dakota is still fighting the effort in court (the legal costs are approaching half a million). "I feel very personal about issues of equality and respect," says Saigo, who is often mistaken for an American Indian. "If we're educational institutions, we need to do a better job educating people."

Wha?

[PCM]

dagies, on Jun 22 2007, 01:36 PM, said:

Wha?

Well, the Sioux are 5-2-3 at St. Cloud over the past five seasons. So maybe that's the "ruckus" that concerned Saigo.

[Chewey]

dagies, on Jun 22 2007, 01:36 PM, said:

Somehow, when I saw Nick Coleman had written a column on Roy Saigo, I just knew this would come up:

Quote

One aspect of Saigo's work has not made him popular in North Dakota but has raised sensitivity to racial issues across the country. Appalled by the ruckus that attended each visit of the North Dakota Fighting Sioux hockey team to St. Cloud State, Saigo appealed to the conscience of the NCAA. If universities are to be educators, Saigo argued, the NCAA had to respond to the nickname issue. His prodding ultimately led the NCAA to ban Indian nicknames, although the University of North Dakota is still fighting the effort in court (the legal costs are approaching half a million). "I feel very personal about issues of equality and respect," says Saigo, who is often mistaken for an American Indian. "If we're educational institutions, we need to do a better job educating people."

Wha?

I wonder if he was/is appalled at the skin heads on campus and about the nightly ruckus on campus regarding the alcohol consumption, arrests, etc. Curiously, Nick Colman does not bring those up. Yep, Saigo sure is a leader. He concocts racism over a nickname where no racism exists and then can't or won't do anything to confront the problems at that school.

[ScottM]

Chewey, on Jun 22 2007, 02:21 PM, said:

I wonder if he was/is appalled at the skin heads on campus and about the nightly ruckus on campus regarding the alcohol consumption, arrests, etc. Curiously, Nick Colman does not bring those up. Yep, Saigo sure is a leader. He concocts racism over a nickname where no racism exists and then can't or won't do anything to confront the problems at that school.

Not to mention the litany of investigations and litigation regarding SCCC's systemic racism and anti-Semitism during Saigo's tenure, and the tax dollars that were doled out in the process. Nikki and Saigo deserve each other.

F*** Saigo.

Linky

[dagies]

PCM, on Jun 22 2007, 01:56 PM, said:

dagies, on Jun 22 2007, 01:36 PM, said:

Wha?

Well, the Sioux are 5-2-3 at St. Cloud over the past five seasons. So maybe that's the "ruckus" that concerned Saigo.

[Goon]

Quote

I feel very personal about issues of equality and respect," says Saigo, who is often mistaken for an American Indian. "If we're educational institutions, we need to do a better job educating people."

What is that, the guy is Asian. Nick Coleman is a Boob, I have other things I colud call him but this is a family show. Seriously, its laughable that Nick even writes this crap. Saigo is a disgrace and his campus has way more racial issues than UND, If you think I am joking talk to anyone that attended this school. To laud this guy as a champion of Racial right is a bigger joke than giving someone like Hugo Cavez or Saddam Hussein a Nobel Peace Prize.