[Sioux-cia]

PCM, on Dec 22 2006, 09:48 AM, said:

The Sicatoka, on Dec 22 2006, 08:21 AM, said:

Let me ask a previous question again:

If you capitulate here, what comes next? Seriously: What. Comes. Next.

And once you've allowed the NCAA to estbalish the precedent of rule by executive committee decree, what comes next?

You all know where I stand! Bending over and saying, 'I quit', is not a position I choose to take.

I respect the opinions of those Sioux fans who choose to capitulate to the NC$$. I just don't agree with you nor will I support your choice.

[Chewey]

ScottM, on Dec 22 2006, 12:20 AM, said:

BobIwabuchiFan, on Dec 21 2006, 08:44 PM, said:

To all,

When is it the right time to stand up and fight? Was it when Engelstad built the rink and brought pride to our small town and state? Was it when the Fed Gov investigated the campus and found no examples of racism/bigotry against native americans? Was it when the NCAA applied the ridiculous 'hostile and abusive' moniker? Was it when Kupchella and the ND AG filed the case? Was it when the injunction was won? I ask this simple question because so many on this board have decided to fight and have now gotten reservations because the University of Minnesota doesn't want to schedule us - Having known the gophers wouldn't play us, would you have chosen to even begin the fight? If you start the fight, then you better damn well be ready to finish and not pussy out by throwing in the towel! In addition, stop throwing in the 'poor atheletes' excuse because this fight is bigger than some kid who thinks he or she is suffering while getting a top notch education on scholarship while playing a game they most likely have loved since being a kid - its a non-starter in my mind and doesn't remove your responsibility for bailing on the fight because you get a little case of weak knees....

Now, bring on the excuse makers, rationalizers, and the compromizers...

BobIwabuchiFan

And *who* is the beneficiary of your alleged fight? Alums who can thump Sioux logos on our overpriced jerseys and sweatshirts? Sure, we can beat the NC$$ in court, and public opinion, and do what? We may have a judgment that probably will not extend beyond GF County. We can rightfully point out the hypocrisy of the NC$$, and schools have decided to not schedule UND because of the name/logo, and keep ourselves warm with insults against pencil-neck PC losers.

However, is the school better served because more natural rivals like Wisco, Iowa or Minnesota refuse to schedule our teams? Will we feel better, or draw enough fans, playing Northern Illinois or Central Florida? Will we draw the fans and other support necessary to support these programs? Are you more proud of UND as an institution, or the name/logo?

I've always expressed support for the name/logo, so long as the school and its students were not adversely affected by it. Well, it seems like the holes are starting to appear on the dikes. A smooth, finanically viable move to D1 takes precedence over the name/logo IMO.

As far as "weak knees" ... I'll be in St. Louis for the Frozen Four if you really want to finish this discussion.

Just because PC ninny institutions like UMTC, WISCO and IOWA (pink visting FB locker room and all), institute "policies" supporting an irrational and racially motivated NC00 mandate we are supposed to stop defending UND against baseless allegations of institutional racism? Racist policies of UMTC, WISCO and IOWA buttressing an even more racially sinister NC00 policy and UND still winds up being labeled the racist institution? Lest we forget, the onus of "racism" is on the NC00 as it has always been the one invoking the concept. Conceptually, it is no different that the ravings of loons like Al Sharpton or his polar opposite, David Duke. It's insane. What the majority needs to do is get motivated like the small cadre of PC nazis. Of course, the people in the majority have jobs, lives, families, jobs that actually stimulate the mind, so they don't have time to fixate on such madness like the college professors during their office hours or sub-par decade-long students. Seriously, is anyone in the alumni department doing anything to organize people around the country to contact their legislators?

[PCM]

From Indian Country Today:

Anti-mascot movement made headway in 2006

Quote

The decades-old effort to abolish the use of sports logos considered racist, offensive and damaging by American Indians advanced significantly in 2006, despite opposition and a well-funded attempt by pro-mascot lobbyists to pass a law that would protect universities from banning their ''Indian'' trademarks.

Quote

The UND has refused to abandon its ''Fighting Sioux'' nickname and has sued the NCAA in state district court in Grand Forks alleging breach of contract and unlawful restraint on trade. The judge issued a preliminary injunction in November allowing UND to keep its nickname without penalty until April, when a trial is scheduled, but has urged both sides to settle out of court.

Quote

''Although the NCAA executive committee continues to believe the stereotypes of Native Americans is wrong, it recognizes that a Native American tribe is a distinct political community,'' said NCAA Senior Vice President Bernard Franklin. ''Therefore, it respects the authority of the tribe to permit university and colleges to use its name and imagery.''

[PCM]

From the Valley News Dispatch:

Crimson Hawks choice for new IUP nickname

Quote

After more than 15 years of debate and analysis, Indiana University of Pennsylvania officials appear to have finally solved the controversy surrounding the school's moniker.

Last Friday, IUP's Council of Trustees nixed the longstanding "Indians" moniker and announced the university's athletic teams now will be known as the Crimson Hawks. IUP opted for the switch in nomenclature after the NCAA Executive Committee ruled in May that the university's previous nickname was deemed hostile or abusive to Native Americans.

Quote

Following Internet polls, surveys, and focus groups, Crimson Hawks emerged as the clear-cut favorite by a two-to-one margin over two other proposed nicknames--the Crimson Thunder and Grey Wolves--that were chosen as semi-finalists from among numerous suggestions.

Quote

In an effort to preserve the past, IUP passed a motion to recognize Native American cultures, events and achievements each November.

"I think (the new name) is creative and something people can wrap their arms around," Davies said.

[PCM]

From Indian Country Today:

Harjo: 2006 Mantle of Shame Awards

Quote

It's time to review the year for the shameful and shameless, with a warning: there aren't a lot of yuks this year. The Mantle of Shame Awards are the written version of collections of stereotypical stuff I once kept on a fireplace mantle to represent the worst that society had to offer.

Quote

''Indian Fight Club'' - Those who fight living Indian peoples over fictional ''Indian'' sports references - such as the University of North Dakota, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and the Washington professional football club - and who fight Native peoples in courts and Congress in order to keep ''honoring'' us with their disparaging names, imagery and behaviors.

''Indian giver'' - The University of Utah, which begged the Ute peoples to let them keep their ''Ute'' sports references, then reneged on its promise of scholarships for Ute students.

Retro Dartmouth Review - For its full front-page ''cartoon'' of a scalp-waving ''Indian on warpath.'' For its relentless effort to bring back the good old days of Dartmouth College's ''Indians'' sports references, which it dropped over 30 years ago. Kudos to the Native Americans at Dartmouth (Go NADs) for withstanding indignities with dignity and to those administrators and faculty members who backed them.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

PCM, on Dec 22 2006, 11:12 AM, said:

From the Valley News Dispatch:

Quote

After more than 15 years of debate and analysis, Indiana University of Pennsylvania officials appear to have finally solved the controversy surrounding the school's moniker.

And by saying "solved", we mean we have made the vast majority of our fans and supporters unhappy, and we expect them to just shut up, give up but certainly keep on supporting us at the same level they have before.

Quote

.... Crimson Hawks emerged as the clear-cut favorite by a two-to-one margin over two other proposed nicknames--the Crimson Thunder and Grey Wolves--that were chosen as semi-finalists from among numerous suggestions.

Chosen by whom???

Quote

In an effort to preserve the past...

And by saying "past", we mean "financial support from people who are disappointed at losing this tradition for no good reason at all but was done merely to shut up some PC whiners who will now move on to the next 'outrage' ".

Quote

"I think (the new name) is creative and something people can wrap their arms around," Davies said.

Yes, thanks for sharing. What took you so long to find this thing that people can finally wrap their arms around? Why do you think people couldn't wrap their arms around "Indians"? Why do you think those people who saw nothing wrong with the former nickname will accept this??.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

PCM, on Dec 22 2006, 11:35 AM, said:

From Indian Country Today:

Quote

''Indian Fight Club'' - Those who fight living Indian peoples over fictional ''Indian'' sports references - such as the University of North Dakota, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and the Washington professional football club - and who fight Native peoples in courts and Congress in order to keep ''honoring'' us with their disparaging names, imagery and behaviors.

Why no reference to Florida State? Why are they not lumped in with Illinois and North Dakota with the snide "honoring" comment?

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

There seems to be some discussion of Minnesota's "advisory committee" here. We at Illinois have a Student-Faculty Senate, and they've been against Chief and the nickname for quite a while. I'm not suprised that a faculty committe at Minnesota has taken a similar preachy stand. Its symbolic, cheap and harmless to them. Of course, actually going to a reservation (or any underprivliged community either within the US or internationally) is something they haven't considered. But lectures? Sure, we can do that. Wait, we're coming out with an advisory policy on shoes, coffee and Venezeulan oil real soon.



In short, you can't force someone to play you. All you can do is continue to be the best team you can, and wait for them in the NCAA's. And play those teams who will play you, and wait for the "Minnesota is hiding behind their 'policy' because they're afraid they'll lose to North Dakota" stories in the newspaper.

One last though-is Minnesota a Nike school? This advisory committee seems like they've got a LOT of time on their hands. Have they come down with a pronouncement regarding Nike's sweatshop labor, egregious corporate profitering, etc? If so, has the Minnesota AD done anything about that???

[Chewey]

Chief Illiniwek Supporter, on Dec 22 2006, 02:04 PM, said:

There seems to be some discussion of Minnesota's "advisory committee" here. We at Illinois have a Student-Faculty Senate, and they've been against Chief and the nickname for quite a while. I'm not suprised that a faculty committe at Minnesota has taken a similar preachy stand. Its symbolic, cheap and harmless to them. Of course, actually going to a reservation (or any underprivliged community either within the US or internationally) is something they haven't considered. But lectures? Sure, we can do that. Wait, we're coming out with an advisory policy on shoes, coffee and Venezeulan oil real soon.



In short, you can't force someone to play you. All you can do is continue to be the best team you can, and wait for them in the NCAA's. And play those teams who will play you, and wait for the "Minnesota is hiding behind their 'policy' because they're afraid they'll lose to North Dakota" stories in the newspaper.

One last though-is Minnesota a Nike school? This advisory committee seems like they've got a LOT of time on their hands. Have they come down with a pronouncement regarding Nike's sweatshop labor, egregious corporate profitering, etc? If so, has the Minnesota AD done anything about that???

Of course not. That would take too much time and may result in the free uniforms and other sports equipment that may be donated to the school by Nike in exchange for the right to advertise. Is there anything that the Illinois U.S. reps are doing to address this business? I thought that one sponsor of some legislation was from Illinois. ND's clowns can't be counted on because they were/are in the hip pockets of some of the tribes (See Jack Abramhoff (sp?) scandal). I live in MN and our reps are just as bad. Even our republican senator is a mushy weenie. Good points all.

[ScottM]

Taz Boy, on Dec 22 2006, 12:41 AM, said:

Seriously, a stale UMN policy gets publicly restated, complete with backpedalling and excuses, and we start to eat our own? Is it that easy? The premier center for higher learning in North Dakota is accused of institutionalized racism and you're worried about missing a game against a crappy D-1 program?

taz

And what's to stop these same pencil necks from viewing applications from UND students/alums in the same light as they view the teams? The same people who institute these policies may also be the same people who review applications for professional and grad schools. If you're so myopic as to think these people would not make that leap at some level, you haven't been following this discussion or fully appreciate the fact they are completely divorced from reality, which explains why they are in academia.

[mksioux]

82SiouxGuy, on Dec 22 2006, 01:41 AM, said:

There are a lot of people in the Twin Cities that have expressed outrage in the past couple of days. It has been a topic of discussion on KFAN radio and everyone thought it was ridiculous. Many UMTC supporters believe that it shows real weakness in the athletic department and they don't like it. Lou Nanne, former Minnesota North Star player and general manager was asked about the decision when he was making a weekly appearance. He is a big Gopher supporter and a friend of Maturi. He said that it was a really bad decision by the advisory council and that Maturi was being pushed into it. He pointed out that UND has a large alumni base in the Twin Cities that would buy a lot of tickets for games, plus the relationship built in hockey made it a good rivalry. So I am not positive that the policy will be enforced long term.

Overall, great post. But that "outrage" heard will quickly dissipate into nothing. I've seen this pattern way too many times. More importantly, Maturi has dug in his heels on this one. UND will have to wait until Maturi is gone and then take a stab at the new AD.

[mksioux]

PCM, on Dec 22 2006, 12:06 AM, said:

bincitysioux, on Dec 21 2006, 09:42 PM, said:

The problem is that, right or wrong, athletics are often the face of a university. This move to DI is about more than athletics, actually it is mostly about academics, good business, and prosperity for the university.

We can't have any of that without Division I athletics? Sorry. I didn't buy that argument when NDSU made it and I'm not buying it when UND makes it.

This bird has flown. UND is going DI. It's important for all sorts of reasons to make the transition successful.

[UND92,96]

mksioux, on Dec 22 2006, 02:54 PM, said:

82SiouxGuy, on Dec 22 2006, 01:41 AM, said:

There are a lot of people in the Twin Cities that have expressed outrage in the past couple of days. It has been a topic of discussion on KFAN radio and everyone thought it was ridiculous. Many UMTC supporters believe that it shows real weakness in the athletic department and they don't like it. Lou Nanne, former Minnesota North Star player and general manager was asked about the decision when he was making a weekly appearance. He is a big Gopher supporter and a friend of Maturi. He said that it was a really bad decision by the advisory council and that Maturi was being pushed into it. He pointed out that UND has a large alumni base in the Twin Cities that would buy a lot of tickets for games, plus the relationship built in hockey made it a good rivalry. So I am not positive that the policy will be enforced long term.

Overall, great post. But that "outrage" heard will quickly dissipate into nothing. I've seen this pattern way too many times. More importantly, Maturi has dug in his heels on this one. UND will have to wait until Maturi is gone and then take a stab at the new AD.

I don't think Maturi will be around long. He's about as popular of an a.d. as Glen Mason is as a football coach, or as Dan Monson was as a basketball coach. If he makes an unpopular decision in the men's basketball coach hire, he's done IMO.

[Shawn-O]

ScottM, on Dec 22 2006, 12:33 PM, said:

Taz Boy, on Dec 22 2006, 12:41 AM, said:

Seriously, a stale UMN policy gets publicly restated, complete with backpedalling and excuses, and we start to eat our own? Is it that easy? The premier center for higher learning in North Dakota is accused of institutionalized racism and you're worried about missing a game against a crappy D-1 program?

taz

And what's to stop these same pencil necks from viewing applications from UND students/alums in the same light as they view the teams? The same people who institute these policies may also be the same people who review applications for professional and grad schools. If you're so myopic as to think these people would not make that leap at some level, you haven't been following this discussion or fully appreciate the fact they are completely divorced from reality, which explains why they are in academia.

This would end up in court so fast it would make your head spin. This is why we measure things like GPA's, quantify scores on GMAT's, LSAT's, etc.

[Matt]

Chewey, on Dec 22 2006, 12:45 PM, said:

ScottM, on Dec 22 2006, 12:20 AM, said:

BobIwabuchiFan, on Dec 21 2006, 08:44 PM, said:

To all,

When is it the right time to stand up and fight? Was it when Engelstad built the rink and brought pride to our small town and state? Was it when the Fed Gov investigated the campus and found no examples of racism/bigotry against native americans? Was it when the NCAA applied the ridiculous 'hostile and abusive' moniker? Was it when Kupchella and the ND AG filed the case? Was it when the injunction was won? I ask this simple question because so many on this board have decided to fight and have now gotten reservations because the University of Minnesota doesn't want to schedule us - Having known the gophers wouldn't play us, would you have chosen to even begin the fight? If you start the fight, then you better damn well be ready to finish and not pussy out by throwing in the towel! In addition, stop throwing in the 'poor atheletes' excuse because this fight is bigger than some kid who thinks he or she is suffering while getting a top notch education on scholarship while playing a game they most likely have loved since being a kid - its a non-starter in my mind and doesn't remove your responsibility for bailing on the fight because you get a little case of weak knees....

Now, bring on the excuse makers, rationalizers, and the compromizers...

BobIwabuchiFan

And *who* is the beneficiary of your alleged fight? Alums who can thump Sioux logos on our overpriced jerseys and sweatshirts? Sure, we can beat the NC$$ in court, and public opinion, and do what? We may have a judgment that probably will not extend beyond GF County. We can rightfully point out the hypocrisy of the NC$$, and schools have decided to not schedule UND because of the name/logo, and keep ourselves warm with insults against pencil-neck PC losers.

However, is the school better served because more natural rivals like Wisco, Iowa or Minnesota refuse to schedule our teams? Will we feel better, or draw enough fans, playing Northern Illinois or Central Florida? Will we draw the fans and other support necessary to support these programs? Are you more proud of UND as an institution, or the name/logo?

I've always expressed support for the name/logo, so long as the school and its students were not adversely affected by it. Well, it seems like the holes are starting to appear on the dikes. A smooth, finanically viable move to D1 takes precedence over the name/logo IMO.

As far as "weak knees" ... I'll be in St. Louis for the Frozen Four if you really want to finish this discussion.

Just because PC ninny institutions like UMTC, WISCO and IOWA (pink visting FB locker room and all), institute "policies" supporting an irrational and racially motivated NC00 mandate we are supposed to stop defending UND against baseless allegations of institutional racism? Racist policies of UMTC, WISCO and IOWA buttressing an even more racially sinister NC00 policy and UND still winds up being labeled the racist institution? Lest we forget, the onus of "racism" is on the NC00 as it has always been the one invoking the concept. Conceptually, it is no different that the ravings of loons like Al Sharpton or his polar opposite, David Duke. It's insane. What the majority needs to do is get motivated like the small cadre of PC nazis. Of course, the people in the majority have jobs, lives, families, jobs that actually stimulate the mind, so they don't have time to fixate on such madness like the college professors during their office hours or sub-par decade-long students. Seriously, is anyone in the alumni department doing anything to organize people around the country to contact their legislators?

Contact their legislators? And tell them to do what exactly? Make them put UND on the U sports schedule? If we want a public backlash, lets see what happens when the MN house reconvenes and Pogemiller says some boosters are wasting his time trying to change a policy he wholeheartedly agrees with, concerning a nickname he finds offensive, all the while he is trying to fund healthcare for uninsured MN children. Don't think that SoB wouldn't do it either. That's just the state reps, God knows what the Federal reps would say about it. Don't make this political. Lest we forget, Minnesota is snuggled right between California and Massachussetts on the political spectrum. It's not like in ND.

Either persuade the advisory comittee, or wait out the clock on Maturi. I think that's the best shot at success.

[PCM]

mksioux, on Dec 22 2006, 12:56 PM, said:

This bird has flown. UND is going DI. It's important for all sorts of reasons to make the transition successful.

I'm not advocating that the bird be recalled. Just don't oversell it. That's all.

[Chewey]

Matt, on Dec 22 2006, 03:41 PM, said:

Chewey, on Dec 22 2006, 12:45 PM, said:

ScottM, on Dec 22 2006, 12:20 AM, said:

BobIwabuchiFan, on Dec 21 2006, 08:44 PM, said:

To all,

When is it the right time to stand up and fight? Was it when Engelstad built the rink and brought pride to our small town and state? Was it when the Fed Gov investigated the campus and found no examples of racism/bigotry against native americans? Was it when the NCAA applied the ridiculous 'hostile and abusive' moniker? Was it when Kupchella and the ND AG filed the case? Was it when the injunction was won? I ask this simple question because so many on this board have decided to fight and have now gotten reservations because the University of Minnesota doesn't want to schedule us - Having known the gophers wouldn't play us, would you have chosen to even begin the fight? If you start the fight, then you better damn well be ready to finish and not pussy out by throwing in the towel! In addition, stop throwing in the 'poor atheletes' excuse because this fight is bigger than some kid who thinks he or she is suffering while getting a top notch education on scholarship while playing a game they most likely have loved since being a kid - its a non-starter in my mind and doesn't remove your responsibility for bailing on the fight because you get a little case of weak knees....

Now, bring on the excuse makers, rationalizers, and the compromizers...

BobIwabuchiFan

And *who* is the beneficiary of your alleged fight? Alums who can thump Sioux logos on our overpriced jerseys and sweatshirts? Sure, we can beat the NC$$ in court, and public opinion, and do what? We may have a judgment that probably will not extend beyond GF County. We can rightfully point out the hypocrisy of the NC$$, and schools have decided to not schedule UND because of the name/logo, and keep ourselves warm with insults against pencil-neck PC losers.

However, is the school better served because more natural rivals like Wisco, Iowa or Minnesota refuse to schedule our teams? Will we feel better, or draw enough fans, playing Northern Illinois or Central Florida? Will we draw the fans and other support necessary to support these programs? Are you more proud of UND as an institution, or the name/logo?

I've always expressed support for the name/logo, so long as the school and its students were not adversely affected by it. Well, it seems like the holes are starting to appear on the dikes. A smooth, finanically viable move to D1 takes precedence over the name/logo IMO.

As far as "weak knees" ... I'll be in St. Louis for the Frozen Four if you really want to finish this discussion.

Just because PC ninny institutions like UMTC, WISCO and IOWA (pink visting FB locker room and all), institute "policies" supporting an irrational and racially motivated NC00 mandate we are supposed to stop defending UND against baseless allegations of institutional racism? Racist policies of UMTC, WISCO and IOWA buttressing an even more racially sinister NC00 policy and UND still winds up being labeled the racist institution? Lest we forget, the onus of "racism" is on the NC00 as it has always been the one invoking the concept. Conceptually, it is no different that the ravings of loons like Al Sharpton or his polar opposite, David Duke. It's insane. What the majority needs to do is get motivated like the small cadre of PC nazis. Of course, the people in the majority have jobs, lives, families, jobs that actually stimulate the mind, so they don't have time to fixate on such madness like the college professors during their office hours or sub-par decade-long students. Seriously, is anyone in the alumni department doing anything to organize people around the country to contact their legislators?

Contact their legislators? And tell them to do what exactly? Make them put UND on the U sports schedule? If we want a public backlash, lets see what happens when the MN house reconvenes and Pogemiller says some boosters are wasting his time trying to change a policy he wholeheartedly agrees with, concerning a nickname he finds offensive, all the while he is trying to fund healthcare for uninsured MN children. Don't think that SoB wouldn't do it either. That's just the state reps, God knows what the Federal reps would say about it. Don't make this political. Lest we forget, Minnesota is snuggled right between California and Massachussetts on the political spectrum. It's not like in ND.

Either persuade the advisory comittee, or wait out the clock on Maturi. I think that's the best shot at success.

My point is to have the fed. legislators support legislation reigning in the tactics of the NC00. There was some movement on this earlier this year. I agree that MN is a god-forsaken leftist state but this state is remarkably getting more right as the years go by. I'd give it another 100 or so. The point is that we have an abusive entity with a lot of power that is exercising that significant power in an ad hoc manner to the detriment of other parties. We have laws for banks and other institutions limiting powers that they have and protecting parties affected by those powers. It would be no different for the NCAA. While it is a "non-profit," and there is plenty to show that it really is not, it can still be regulated and it should be regulated hard. It is a de facto monopoly and should be busted up. If the legislators had the balls to do it in 1984 against Ma Bell, they could conceivably grow balls again and do it to the NC00.

[Matt]

Chewey, on Dec 22 2006, 04:33 PM, said:

Matt, on Dec 22 2006, 03:41 PM, said:

Chewey, on Dec 22 2006, 12:45 PM, said:

ScottM, on Dec 22 2006, 12:20 AM, said:

BobIwabuchiFan, on Dec 21 2006, 08:44 PM, said:

To all,

When is it the right time to stand up and fight? Was it when Engelstad built the rink and brought pride to our small town and state? Was it when the Fed Gov investigated the campus and found no examples of racism/bigotry against native americans? Was it when the NCAA applied the ridiculous 'hostile and abusive' moniker? Was it when Kupchella and the ND AG filed the case? Was it when the injunction was won? I ask this simple question because so many on this board have decided to fight and have now gotten reservations because the University of Minnesota doesn't want to schedule us - Having known the gophers wouldn't play us, would you have chosen to even begin the fight? If you start the fight, then you better damn well be ready to finish and not pussy out by throwing in the towel! In addition, stop throwing in the 'poor atheletes' excuse because this fight is bigger than some kid who thinks he or she is suffering while getting a top notch education on scholarship while playing a game they most likely have loved since being a kid - its a non-starter in my mind and doesn't remove your responsibility for bailing on the fight because you get a little case of weak knees....

Now, bring on the excuse makers, rationalizers, and the compromizers...

BobIwabuchiFan

And *who* is the beneficiary of your alleged fight? Alums who can thump Sioux logos on our overpriced jerseys and sweatshirts? Sure, we can beat the NC$$ in court, and public opinion, and do what? We may have a judgment that probably will not extend beyond GF County. We can rightfully point out the hypocrisy of the NC$$, and schools have decided to not schedule UND because of the name/logo, and keep ourselves warm with insults against pencil-neck PC losers.

However, is the school better served because more natural rivals like Wisco, Iowa or Minnesota refuse to schedule our teams? Will we feel better, or draw enough fans, playing Northern Illinois or Central Florida? Will we draw the fans and other support necessary to support these programs? Are you more proud of UND as an institution, or the name/logo?

I've always expressed support for the name/logo, so long as the school and its students were not adversely affected by it. Well, it seems like the holes are starting to appear on the dikes. A smooth, finanically viable move to D1 takes precedence over the name/logo IMO.

As far as "weak knees" ... I'll be in St. Louis for the Frozen Four if you really want to finish this discussion.

Just because PC ninny institutions like UMTC, WISCO and IOWA (pink visting FB locker room and all), institute "policies" supporting an irrational and racially motivated NC00 mandate we are supposed to stop defending UND against baseless allegations of institutional racism? Racist policies of UMTC, WISCO and IOWA buttressing an even more racially sinister NC00 policy and UND still winds up being labeled the racist institution? Lest we forget, the onus of "racism" is on the NC00 as it has always been the one invoking the concept. Conceptually, it is no different that the ravings of loons like Al Sharpton or his polar opposite, David Duke. It's insane. What the majority needs to do is get motivated like the small cadre of PC nazis. Of course, the people in the majority have jobs, lives, families, jobs that actually stimulate the mind, so they don't have time to fixate on such madness like the college professors during their office hours or sub-par decade-long students. Seriously, is anyone in the alumni department doing anything to organize people around the country to contact their legislators?

Contact their legislators? And tell them to do what exactly? Make them put UND on the U sports schedule? If we want a public backlash, lets see what happens when the MN house reconvenes and Pogemiller says some boosters are wasting his time trying to change a policy he wholeheartedly agrees with, concerning a nickname he finds offensive, all the while he is trying to fund healthcare for uninsured MN children. Don't think that SoB wouldn't do it either. That's just the state reps, God knows what the Federal reps would say about it. Don't make this political. Lest we forget, Minnesota is snuggled right between California and Massachussetts on the political spectrum. It's not like in ND.

Either persuade the advisory comittee, or wait out the clock on Maturi. I think that's the best shot at success.

My point is to have the fed. legislators support legislation reigning in the tactics of the NC00. There was some movement on this earlier this year. I agree that MN is a god-forsaken leftist state but this state is remarkably getting more right as the years go by. I'd give it another 100 or so. The point is that we have an abusive entity with a lot of power that is exercising that significant power in an ad hoc manner to the detriment of other parties. We have laws for banks and other institutions limiting powers that they have and protecting parties affected by those powers. It would be no different for the NCAA. While it is a "non-profit," and there is plenty to show that it really is not, it can still be regulated and it should be regulated hard. It is a de facto monopoly and should be busted up. If the legislators had the balls to do it in 1984 against Ma Bell, they could conceivably grow balls again and do it to the NC00.

I always love that one.

[ScottM]

Shawn-O, on Dec 22 2006, 01:11 PM, said:

ScottM, on Dec 22 2006, 12:33 PM, said:

Taz Boy, on Dec 22 2006, 12:41 AM, said:

Seriously, a stale UMN policy gets publicly restated, complete with backpedalling and excuses, and we start to eat our own? Is it that easy? The premier center for higher learning in North Dakota is accused of institutionalized racism and you're worried about missing a game against a crappy D-1 program?

taz

And what's to stop these same pencil necks from viewing applications from UND students/alums in the same light as they view the teams? The same people who institute these policies may also be the same people who review applications for professional and grad schools. If you're so myopic as to think these people would not make that leap at some level, you haven't been following this discussion or fully appreciate the fact they are completely divorced from reality, which explains why they are in academia.

This would end up in court so fast it would make your head spin. This is why we measure things like GPA's, quantify scores on GMAT's, LSAT's, etc.

State your cause(s) of action. Being an alum or student of a specific university that uses a "hostile or abusive" team/logo doesn't make you a member of a protected class, even under the Roberts Court. If you think admissions to grad and professional schools are completely objective and based on test scores, grades, etc., you are in for a really rude awakening.

It seems the only people in this fight who think there's a chance in hell of a district court judgment in Grand Forks County holding any water outside of North Dakota's borders are the non-lawyers who think a parking ticket will get them in front of the US Supreme Court.

And if you think I'm alone in my thinking in this:

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Acknowledge and continue to assess the impact of the divisive and controversial nature of the Fighting Sioux athletic nickname and logos. (Ca:ongoing)

From UND's Strategic Plan. I didn't see anything in there about fighting to the last appeal, last dollar spent or to make a point about the absurdity of the NC$$ and certain schools' views on the issue.

[Goon]

More Dartmouth
Very interesting perspective, this was taken from the comments of the article. Seems to me UND doesn't have half the problems DU has.

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Brrrr...It appears that some Ivy League students need to take a chill pill to warm up their cold-blooded hearts and attitudes towards minorities. Time to turn up the heat on the ol’ “Bonfires of Respect For All Peoples".

Perhaps Dartmouth and other excellent institutions of higher learning should add a required course titled “Class- How to Fake It Even When You Ain’t Feeling It” or better yet “When Animal Houses Attack". (That might be well suited to accompany the current and well-intentioned “Alcohol Is Not Always Your Friend” course)

My minority kid attends Dartmouth and has had any number of observations on bad behavior by all races, colors and creeds that attend the school.

But guess what??? It’s everywhere. It’s in our homes, workplaces, and religious institutions. Intolerance, ignorance and just plain youthful idiocy are not just a part of the total college experience. It’s part of the American experience.

To President Wright and all other leaders of privileged schools across this nation — Handle your business SWIFTLY and courageously. Dartmouth is a wonderful college and too great to have its reputation sullied by a few irresponsible and outrageously narrow-minded students.

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Theme Parties and Hate
On Columbus Day we usually hold a ceremony of mourning and the group of students that disrupted that vigil or class need to be cited for their disrespect towards another human beings beliefs. Stereotyping has gone on far too long! As for the cowboys and indians, That was also poor taste and not a very respectful event. Historically many cowboys were freinds and allies with the native american people.What kind of college would have staff and board members sit back and allow this disgusting behavior? Maybe the School should consider a committee to pre scan events first before such things happen. I do not practice christianity, but I find the crusader giving the Indian a blow job very poor taste and the ones who are associated this idea should be held accountable and booted from the college! No more no less! They attend to learn not mock and demean others. “Students involved be thankful I am not your school president.”

Arthur Meddicine Eagle-Sonier, President at Zibiodey River Heart Metis, at 6:40 am EST on November 28, 2006

I wonder if the admin is asleep at the wheel at DU.