[Goon]

undsportsfan, on Nov 16 2006, 01:24 PM, said:

I do agree some people play that racism card far too much sometimes. But racism does happen. Just not as often as some people want to claim it is.

*my apologies, for this post. I was/am very insulted*

What really upsets me is people are trying to invent racism at UND and no body has presented anything in the way of proof, (if there is I have yet to see any) heck the ACLU, not a conservative organization by any stretch of the imagination found nothing when it visited UND, so are we to say they are full of crap? When Mr. Fool Bear came here (as per the Kersten article from the Star Tribune) there was again no evidence that UND was not this racist place "everyone" was claiming it was. Fool Bear said he was sold a bill of good. Even if you look at the case UND versus NCAA all these liberal faculty can say is they have is anecdotal evidence, its not evidence. For the lawsuit, they wheel out tee shirts that are 16 years old from our opponents. That’s not us at UND, that some stupid bison fan that made that shirt.

Lets take a look at what some of the people are saying that aren’t against the name. They are being badgers because they don’t have a problem with the name. Sure we all know there are people against the name, but should we sacrifice a sports team’s name just to make a few people happy. Hillary Clinton offends me and I am sure there are other people that are offended by her leftist views too, should we call for her to be removed from office.

What next? I remember when Russell Means came her to protest Englestad arena, he called the natives that like the name idiots and or morons. I am sure there were people that were offended by his speech.

[PCM]

Goon, on Nov 16 2006, 01:27 PM, said:

What really upsets me is people are trying to invent racism at UND and no body has presented anything in the way of proof, (if there is I have yet to see any) heck the ACLU, not a conservative organization by any stretch of the imagination found nothing when it visited UND, so are we to say they are full of crap?

When was that?

[GeauxSioux]

Goon, on Nov 16 2006, 03:27 PM, said:

Hillary Clinton offends me and I am sure there are other people that are offended by her leftist views too, should we call for her to be removed from office.

That would be nice, but unfortuantely only people in the state of New York have that power and the majority of them appear to be of the same ilk.

[Goon]

PCM, on Nov 16 2006, 03:29 PM, said:

Goon, on Nov 16 2006, 01:27 PM, said:

What really upsets me is people are trying to invent racism at UND and no body has presented anything in the way of proof, (if there is I have yet to see any) heck the ACLU, not a conservative organization by any stretch of the imagination found nothing when it visited UND, so are we to say they are full of crap?

When was that?

I read it on line and I don't remember where I saw it. I figured it had to be true.

[Goon]

GeauxSioux, on Nov 16 2006, 03:36 PM, said:

Goon, on Nov 16 2006, 03:27 PM, said:

Hillary Clinton offends me and I am sure there are other people that are offended by her leftist views too, should we call for her to be removed from office.

That would be nice, but unfortuantely only people in the state of New York have that power and the majority of them appear to be of the same ilk.

I know but I am illustarting how ridculous this argument has become. The US Constitution does not say I have the right to not be offended. Second. I am sick and tired of people saying UND is like Nazi central. Star article blog

Quote

am a proud Hidatsa, Mandan, Oglala, Hunkpapa man who did graduate from that school of sin - UND. I was there to protest the “Ralph” when the board voted to keep the nickname shortly after the nazi-sympathizer sent a threatening letter to N.D.’s board of “higher” education. If one person is offended by it, then that is wrong. . . How many times does it need to be said.

I mean look at this crap...

[PCM]

Goon, on Nov 16 2006, 01:41 PM, said:

I read it on line and I don't remember where I saw it. I figured it had to be true.

Are you perhaps referring to the U.S. Department of Education's Office of Civil Rights investigation of UND in 2002? That's not the ACLU.

[Ray77]

Goon, on Nov 16 2006, 01:43 PM, said:

GeauxSioux, on Nov 16 2006, 03:36 PM, said:

Goon, on Nov 16 2006, 03:27 PM, said:

Hillary Clinton offends me and I am sure there are other people that are offended by her leftist views too, should we call for her to be removed from office.

That would be nice, but unfortuantely only people in the state of New York have that power and the majority of them appear to be of the same ilk.

I know but I am illustarting how ridculous this argument has become. The US Constitution does not say I have the right to not be offended. Second. I am sick and tired of people saying UND is like Nazi central. Star article blog

Quote

am a proud Hidatsa, Mandan, Oglala, Hunkpapa man who did graduate from that school of sin - UND. I was there to protest the “Ralph” when the board voted to keep the nickname shortly after the nazi-sympathizer sent a threatening letter to N.D.’s board of “higher” education. If one person is offended by it, then that is wrong. . . How many times does it need to be said.

I mean look at this crap...

Not only are his "Nazi" comments ludacris (if you don't agree, start namecalling), but does the guy really, truly believe that if 1 person is offended by something, then it must be wrong and needs to be changed? You're telling me that he was being serious with that comment?

[undsportsfan]

Ok, far too many replies and questions for one person to answer. And I don't have all the answers, Or I'm just not good with words too.

One, I was insulted by being generalized. Fightingbooya and I discussed and apologies made and accepted. That is between the two of us. And it's 'settled'.

We keep steering away from the issue on the nickname too.

The logo by Bennet Brien. Beautiful. I can't argue with that. The image is not used respectively. I can't imagine an artist would have thought their image that they considered art to be used on door mats, dog dish bottoms, napkins, floors, etc.

And exactly my point. I'm a sports fan. I get up and excited and agressive... I know what we say about the opposing teams. No matter at what level the team is at. And for that reason, I think the nickname should be gone. I don't like hearing anything towards Sioux, or any native for that reason, as I'm sitting there in the stands. I'd like to simply enjoy a game.

Mr. Fool Bear, well, yes, like I'm one person, he's one person too. He has been told stories of racism. Before when I supported the nickname I witnessed lots of racism and was a victim of it too. During class, after, before... even during work. Did I make a big deal? No. I didn't want to. I felt alone or it wouldn't be a big deal as it should have been.

I have been reading lots about debates of nicknames. I'll post some links. I will give it to you to read though, I don't agree with everything, but I agree with a lot. It's not just the Fighting Sioux nickname, there's others I don't like.

I wasn't raised to feel like a victim of racism, etc... never heard a complaint in my family that started or ended with 'because I'm native.' but at the age of 5, watching baseball... seeing the tomahawk chop, I knew that was wrong. I didn't like being mocked.

http://www.bluecornc...com/mascots.htm
http://www.iwchildren.org/barb.htm
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.politic...43c58dc21be6946
http://www.aics.org/mascot/cornel.html
http://www.indiancou...m?id=1096411618
http://www.racismaga...dingMascots.htm
http://www.inwhosehonor.com/
http://www.UND.edu/o...dges/psych.html
http://www.aistm.org....countering.htm
http://www.blackathlete.net/artman/publish...icle_0880.shtml
http://www.truthout....6/041406H.shtml

it's a lot to read... but it's all interesting.

[Hayduke]

undsportsfan, on Nov 16 2006, 03:23 PM, said:

Ok, far too many replies and questions for one person to answer. And I don't have all the answers, Or I'm just not good with words too.

One, I was insulted by being generalized. Fightingbooya and I discussed and apologies made and accepted. That is between the two of us. And it's 'settled'.

We keep steering away from the issue on the nickname too.

The logo by Bennet Brien. Beautiful. I can't argue with that. The image is not used respectively. I can't imagine an artist would have thought their image that they considered art to be used on door mats, dog dish bottoms, napkins, floors, etc.

And exactly my point. I'm a sports fan. I get up and excited and agressive... I know what we say about the opposing teams. No matter at what level the team is at. And for that reason, I think the nickname should be gone. I don't like hearing anything towards Sioux, or any native for that reason, as I'm sitting there in the stands. I'd like to simply enjoy a game.

Mr. Fool Bear, well, yes, like I'm one person, he's one person too. He has been told stories of racism. Before when I supported the nickname I witnessed lots of racism and was a victim of it too. During class, after, before... even during work. Did I make a big deal? No. I didn't want to. I felt alone or it wouldn't be a big deal as it should have been.

I have been reading lots about debates of nicknames. I'll post some links. I will give it to you to read though, I don't agree with everything, but I agree with a lot. It's not just the Fighting Sioux nickname, there's others I don't like.

I wasn't raised to feel like a victim of racism, etc... never heard a complaint in my family that started or ended with 'because I'm native.' but at the age of 5, watching baseball... seeing the tomahawk chop, I knew that was wrong. I didn't like being mocked.

http://www.bluecornc...com/mascots.htm
http://www.iwchildren.org/barb.htm
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.politic...43c58dc21be6946
http://www.aics.org/mascot/cornel.html
http://www.indiancou...m?id=1096411618
http://www.racismaga...dingMascots.htm
http://www.inwhosehonor.com/
http://www.UND.edu/o...dges/psych.html
http://www.aistm.org....countering.htm
http://www.blackathlete.net/artman/publish...icle_0880.shtml
http://www.truthout....6/041406H.shtml

it's a lot to read... but it's all interesting.

Although I don't agree with your position, I appreciate the information you posted and the level headed case you made. Cooler heads will prevail no matter what happens with the name issue at UND.

[The Sicatoka]

"undsportsfan":

You're of a different point of view on this issue than the majority (of both American Indians and the general population). That's OK. Open, rational discourse is what makes this country great. Like it says in one of the briefs to the court, even

Quote

... the NCAA concedes, reasonable people disagree about the use of Native American imagery.

[CDog]

Yes, undsportsfan has made some thoughtful points. But he/she failed to "link" the racism he/she has endured to the logo or nickname. This is one thing I don't understand. Show me some direct correlation between the two. You know what I think? Some people are going to be racist regardless of the nickname. Secondly, I read with great interest undsportsfan's thoughts on the misuse of the logo. I was at the 7 Clans Casino in Thief River Falls a while back. The logo for the Casino is a representation of some sacred feathers. I know feathers to be of great importance in the Indian culture. Near the swimming pool in the water park there were many of these logos inlaid in the concrete surrounding the pool. I watched as kids and adults walked across these feathers. Dripping swim suits. Bare feet. Is this ok? Disrespectful? I never get a straight answer on this...by the way, a few posts back someone brought up Vernon Bellecourt's name...what he actually said was that any Native American who supported the Fighting Sioux nickname was a "retard". I know because I was there.

[siouxforeverbaby]

undsportsfan, on Nov 16 2006, 04:23 PM, said:

The logo by Bennet Brien. Beautiful. I can't argue with that. The image is not used respectively. I can't imagine an artist would have thought their image that they considered art to be used on door mats, dog dish bottoms, napkins, floors, etc.

I have one question. If I am reading this right, you don't believe that Bennet Brien knew that his logo was going to be used on door mats and all the rest. Is that correct? If not, I am sorry that I took it wrong. If it is true, that doesn't make sense. He was to design a logo for UND and he didn't realize that UND would use it one merchandise. I would think that he would have know that one.

I do like your arguements though. I don't agree with you on all of them, but you are much better at explaining your points than some.

[PCM]

undsportsfan, on Nov 16 2006, 04:23 PM, said:

The logo by Bennet Brien. Beautiful. I can't argue with that. The image is not used respectively. I can't imagine an artist would have thought their image that they considered art to be used on door mats, dog dish bottoms, napkins, floors, etc.

If Bennett Brien is so horrified by the logo's use, then why does he continue to be a proponent for the Fighting Sioux nickname? You never did answer my question about the tribal casino using images of eagle feathers to advertise on the side of a Grand Forks bus where the "feathers" are splashed with mud and covered with road grime. Why is it acceptable to do that but not use the Fighting Sioux logo in any of the manners you describe?

[GeauxSioux]

I haven't read through all of the information provided in the links provided by undsportsfan, but I've read enough to find some commonality in it. It seems most of the links talk about nicknames such as Indian or Warrior, inapproriate chants and hand motions, cartoon-like logos and white men dressed as mascots. The University of North Dakota does not have these things. As I said previously, UND has a beautifully designed logo and the name Fighting Sioux. Is the name Sioux offensive to Native Americans? I ask this because I have read where some try and say that Sioux is a deragatory name. But if it is deragatory, why it is used on a casino and a manufacturing facility? I digress.

UND has no mascot. There is no chanting. There are no feathers worn inappropriately. No tomahawk chop.

I'll trot out my Fighting Icelanders one more time and hope to get someone to present a serious repsonse to the question that I posed previously.

What's up with this?
Change The Name

Quote

The future looks promising in dismantling a lot of Native American mascots throughout America. The University of North Dakota FIGHTING SIOUX is currently taking steps to remove their logo from all sports uniforms. UND has been known to have a very good hockey team going to the "Frozen Four" college hockey final four many times.

[siouxforeverbaby]

GeauxSioux, on Nov 16 2006, 09:49 PM, said:

What's up with this?
Change The Name

Quote

The future looks promising in dismantling a lot of Native American mascots throughout America. The University of North Dakota FIGHTING SIOUX is currently taking steps to remove their logo from all sports uniforms. UND has been known to have a very good hockey team going to the "Frozen Four" college hockey final four many times.

at first I thought that was referring to the NCAA's policy but it is from July 13th, 2005. Indeed, what is up?

[Vegas_Sioux]

siouxforeverbaby, on Nov 16 2006, 09:58 PM, said:

GeauxSioux, on Nov 16 2006, 09:49 PM, said:

What's up with this?
Change The Name

Quote

The future looks promising in dismantling a lot of Native American mascots throughout America. The University of North Dakota FIGHTING SIOUX is currently taking steps to remove their logo from all sports uniforms. UND has been known to have a very good hockey team going to the "Frozen Four" college hockey final four many times.

at first I thought that was referring to the NCAA's policy but it is from July 13th, 2005. Indeed, what is up?

WoW- Some people have too much time on their hands

[undsportsfan]

I had not once said that Bennet Brien is horrified at the use of the art. But in the perspective as an artist in general, when I had heard of the art contest, which I have entered plenty of, I would have never imagined that my image would be at the bottoms of dog dishes, floor mats, etc. That is my opinion. Not Bennet Brien's. I am not here to represent Mr. Brien, so do not think those are his words or opinion at all. His intentions were well intended. But the bridging of the gap didn't happen. It just stirred them back up.

I'm trying to discuss the use of Sports Nicknames and American Indians. Not trying to discuss casinos. Not trying to discuss life on reservations. Not trying to discuss scholarships or grants.

The nickname perpetuates negative stereotypes about American Indian people and has a negative impact on us. the nickname just doesnt belong in sports arenas. I'd like to be able to attend games without that feelling of awkwardness just as many other Native sports fans. And I don't want to see my children go through it either or debating/questioning their ethnicity over a nickname. Just as I've seen over the decade i've been here in Grand Forks. And I feel that until the name is retired respectfully, we will continue to see this within the community.

[southpaw]

undsportsfan, on Nov 16 2006, 11:25 PM, said:

I feel that until the name is retired respectfully, we will continue to see this within the community.

i, and i'm sure many here, feel that even without the name, unfortunately these things will still continue. i don't think it's a nickname problem, but a society problem. it's unfortunate that racism exists, but i don't think it has to do with the Fighting Sioux nickname, as it does with attitudes in this area.

[Chewey]

If a nickname "makes you feel" all those things, one would think you have much deeper problems and I do not mean that in a bad way. No one, no nickname can "make" you feel anything. How/why do you give a nickname and other people that kind of power over you? The only ones who see "stereotyping" manifested through a simple nickname are the PC'ers. There obviously are self-esteem issues that need to be addressed and the nickname will not change those issues. The PC'ers apparent argument seems to me to be analogous to the argument that there will be less smoking or that smoking will start to be a thing of the past if there are no "Joe Camel" shirts. Ridiculous. We are all responsible for our own feelings and we need to assume ownership of them. Blaming a nickname and supporters of a nickname for deep-seated issues is deflecting and deferring that ownership.

[SiouxMeNow]

undsportsfan, on Nov 16 2006, 11:25 PM, said:

I had not once said that Bennet Brien is horrified at the use of the art. But in the perspective as an artist in general, when I had heard of the art contest, which I have entered plenty of, I would have never imagined that my image would be at the bottoms of dog dishes, floor mats, etc. That is my opinion. Not Bennet Brien's. I am not here to represent Mr. Brien, so do not think those are his words or opinion at all. His intentions were well intended. But the bridging of the gap didn't happen. It just stirred them back up.

I'm trying to discuss the use of Sports Nicknames and American Indians. Not trying to discuss casinos. Not trying to discuss life on reservations. Not trying to discuss scholarships or grants.

The nickname perpetuates negative stereotypes about American Indian people and has a negative impact on us. the nickname just doesnt belong in sports arenas. I'd like to be able to attend games without that feelling of awkwardness just as many other Native sports fans. And I don't want to see my children go through it either or debating/questioning their ethnicity over a nickname. Just as I've seen over the decade i've been here in Grand Forks. And I feel that until the name is retired respectfully, we will continue to see this within the community.

from what I recall...Bennet Brien was essentially commissioned to produce the work and was compensated well for his effort. That's how America works! (See CAPITALISM - it's in the dictionary!) I haven't seen him complain about its commercial usage at all. The work itself and the explanation of the usage of colors, etc...symbolize exactly WHAT UND's nickname stands for. Have you tried to contact the "artist" that designed the Cleveland Indians logo?? You might have more of a bone to pick with them....