Anti D-I petition circulating at SDSU

[jimdahl]

http://www.sdsucollegian.com/news/333934.h...tml?mkey=525762

The petition, which started circulating a few weeks ago, was spearheaded by Lorna Jost, a research assistant at SDSU's Station BioChem.

Jost said she started the petition because she found very few people who were actually in favor of the move, but did not have a way to express their opposition.

"Of all the people that I talked to about the Division One move, nobody- not one person- was for it," she said.

A two-page information and background packet titled, "SDSU: Who in their right mind would go Division I?" accompany the petition. The packet outlines eleven points on why the petitioners do not approve of the proposed DI move.

The petition asks SDSU administration officials to "listen to the practical people of South Dakota."

but on the flip side...

Ben Solomon, Student Association vice-president, said he and the SA were aware of the petition. Senators saw it at the Nov. 11 SA meeting.

"We feel that the petition contains views that may not be all that accurate," he said. "The accuracy can be checked by the facts that lie in the report by Carr Sports and Associates."

Solomon said the resolution passed by the SA in October in support of the DI move remains the position of the Association.

[JBB]

Lorna Jost sounds llike she would fit in well with the Bridges group on your campus? She is a reasearch assistant after all!!

[SDSUFAN]

JBB:

What Jost does not say, but what she told me privately in an email is that she has two nephews who are being recruited by SDSU. The nephews want to play for a National championship, and this is her private matter driving her. Kind of selfish if you ask me.

I reminded her that she would probably gain research dollars if we did go D1, but she apparently is more concerned about her nephew's desire to play for a national championship.

[SDSUFAN]

Just to substantiate my comments about Ms. Jost personal agenda here is an excerpt from a private email a few weeks ago.

"I do have a personal interest - my nephews Sr. and Jr. in High School are both being heavily recruited by basketball and football programs in the area - Both D1 and D2, and including SDSU. They like to win and are very competitive. Neither will look at SDSU (where just about all of their extensive numbers of aunts and uncles have gone to school) if it goes D1 - because they won't be able to play for championships. I am hating like the devil thinking that "U" may have a chance at them!"

The "U" Ms Jost is referring to is USD.

[PCM]

I reminded her that she would probably gain research dollars if we did go D1, but she apparently is more concerned about her nephew's desire to play for a national championship.

If most people support SDSU's move to DIAA, then I don't know what you have to fear from a faculty member circulating petitions for selfish reasons.

I'm also curious about your statement above. How, exactly, does being a DIAA school help SDSU attract more research dollars?

[The Sicatoka]

PCM:

Didn't you know that every research grant granting organization checks your level in the National Collegiate Athletic Association before granting academic research dollars.

[PCM]

Is that it? I thought mabye there was a box to check on the grant application form or something.

[diggerdan]

Actually, I have always thought that this was an academic benefit of going D-I for NDSU. It must be tough for SDSU and NDSU to compete for research money against the other land-grant schools across the nation. Athletics has a great deal to do with the perception of a university. Of course, I have no evidence to support this. I do feel the lure of more $$$ in research grants is Chapman's primary motiviation in pushing D-I at NDSU.

[SDSUFAN]

PCM:

It has a lot to do with research. There is a Sun Grant that was announced this summer and I posted the detail on that. It does not include partners who are D2 unfortunately. Pres Miller is working on a number of research projects and having a higher visiblity in athletics will help draw research. Its hard to make a correlation, and show it to you in a graph, but it plays a very indirect part.

The only other D2 school among the land grant schools is Alaska Fairbanks. Oh gee even Alaska Fairbanks has D1 hockey so bully for them. Where does that leave a land grant school like SDSU? A backwards D2 school in one of the best D2 conferences in the country So I say BFD and BFD does not stand for Brookings Fire Department in this context. NDSU and UCD are going D1AA , both Land Grant Schools, so its makes a lot of sense. Its not about being a parent and chastizing your child because the neighbor kid does something and your child wants to do the same, but some of that mentality is being expressed by those who oppose this move. I dont like being a graduate of the only Land Grant School created by the Morrill Act of 1862 that can not afford a single D1 program.

No wonder people get that stupid look on their face when you say you are from South Dakota. Try that out in Chicago. Outside image, South Dakota is just fine just a little warmer than North Dakota, thanks to the equator. I bet I could fine people in the twin cities that don't have a clue about South Dakota.

Being a higher level helps draw students from a urban setting, something that SDSU has not been very agressive about in the past. Its about image and how can our image improve at SDSU when you insist in being just like we have been for the last forty years. "What is good enough for me is good for the future" is what some old farts like you are thinking in insisting that we stay D2.

SDSU can no longer being content with recruiting 40 or 50 students from the Pierre area. We need to broaden our efforts academically and athletically. There are students out there that will come to SDSU to study and participate in sports.

Governor Pinchoet aka William Janklow put up barriers to keep out of state students out and that was a big mistake. Alums of SDSU, and other State schools used to be able to send their kids to SD at instate tuition rates. Pincheot, I mean Janklow put an end to that and Janklow hurt USD more than any of the other schools.

Its about image, you bet it is and also research dollars.

I spoke with the Dean of the Graduate School at SDSU last spring at the SDSU foundation banquet. I did not see your face there, PCM. Must have been home in GF watching UND Hockey videos.

I asked the Grad School Dean what he thought of the D1 issue. He told me he was greatly in favor and he thought SDSU has lost graduate students because of being at the D2 level. These grad students are not from Pierre South Dakota but from other parts of the country and want to watch good events on weekends. They dont usually give a damn about UND Hockey or the NCC nor are they going to become D2 fans in the two or three years that they are on campus.

Gee if SDSU only had a Ralph Englestad. Life would be so simple and heck we could stay D2.

[SDSUFAN]

We seem to be quoting the Collegian article piece meal. I dont fear Ms Jost or her petition. Its a civil right open to Ms. Jost, but its also maybe a good way to not get tenure or lose your job.

In the Collegian article, a member of the Student Senate made comment that certain statements that are part of the petition are not accruate, and well I hope Ms. Jost enjoys being corrected in front of the regents, by Dr. Oien or even by her boss Peggy Miller. Peggy is very graceful, but can get point across without letting the smile disappear from her face.

So good luck Lorna, you will need it at the Regents meeting on Dec 4th.

[PCM]

No need to get defensive, SDSUFAN. I was just asking.

Having been involved in university research for the past 11 years, I believe that solid academics and a reputation for producing quality research results are the foremost factors in attracting research dollars. After all, there are universities with world-class research programs that do little or nothing in the athletic arena.

I won't go so far as to say that athletic status is a non-factor, but in my experience, it's a minimal factor at best.

[jimdahl]

SDSUFAN --

Since you seem to have known about this petition and communicated with Ms. Jost in the past, you wouldn't by chance have a copy of this infamous pamphlet that she's distributing with the petitions?

I'm curious if the "errors" are things like actually incorrect numbers, or if they're challenges to some of the more controversial assertions (e.g. that the move will aid academics).

[SDSUFAN]

PCM:

Athletics are very important. I got a MBA from Keller, a diploma mill. No athletics, just a healthy bottom line on their financials. No athletes no glee club, nothing they had offer but a request to have you take some more of their courses at an additional mark-up. With out the athletics at SDSU, I would not have given them $25,000 over the past 15 years.

I could give to church and get the same itemized deduction on the Form 1040.

I feel very passionate about South Dakota and its image. I wanted to kick some old fart in the ass in a elevator in Kansas City when he saw my SDSU sweet shirt and thought I was from San Diego State. The dumb A@@ did not know that San Diego State has black and red as their colors and I was wearing a bright blue and maize sweetshirt.

Not only that it said South Dakota State on the sweatshirt, but he was to lazy to read it. Its stuff like that I am so tired of .

[SDSUFAN]

Jim:

Ms Jost first made her announcement of the petition through the Brookings Register Speak Out column on the editoral page. The Register is cheap and does not put these columns on the web. She had included a email address.

Here it is:

SDSU in Division II

E-mail Address(es):

sdsudivisionii@yahoo.com

I have no problems with her finding out about what I have posted here. I told her in the first email, that I had no intentions whatsoever of signing her petition. So I have never seen it, but I trust our bright students at SDSU who have observed and commented to that affect in the article that appeared in the Collieigan.

Since you admonished others for posting entire articles on this message board, I think you should go to the SDSU site and see the entire article. Here is their email addy, and you may have to sign up for a pass word if you have not already done that.

SDSUCollegian@collegepublisher.com

[jimdahl]

Since you admonished others for posting entire articles on this message board, I think you should go to the SDSU site and see the entire article. Here is their email addy, and you may have to sign up for a pass word if you have not already done that.

Easy there, killer. I went to the site. If you'd simply scroll up, you'd see that I was the one who provided the link to the site and quotes from the story in first place.

BTW-- not reposting copyrighted materials isn't my rule, it's the law of land. I was simply asking if you'd seen the pamphlet that the article indicates she distributes. I've already been bombarded with all the pro-move propaganda that the school distributes, I don't need to see any more of that. I was curious what she had to say, but apparently you've not actually seen it.

[PCM]

With out the athletics at SDSU, I would not have given them $25,000 over the past 15 years.

I could give to church and get the same itemized deduction on the Form 1040.

$25,000 over 15 years? To quote my favorite SDSUFAN, BFD. That doesn't exactly make you the NIH, EPA, DoE or DoD, does it?

[SDSUFAN]

PCM:

I am hardly a Ralph but then I dont own Imperial Palace Casino on the strip either.

Let me add that I never implied I was National Institute of Health director, and the other alphabet soup groups who do have research dollars. I am proud of my modest gifts and I think what a person gives back in return after leaving campus show what kind of loyalty you have towards your alma mater. I feel I am a giver and taker. I am not done giving yet either, but feel no need to post that on this board.

In view of Mr. Englestad's untimely death yesterday, it would appear UND meant a great deal to him. I said before, that I have admired Ralph for his business know-how. He has given back in a big way by building the ice arena and hiring local contractors.

I think any institution that is after federal research dollars must be connected with the state congressional delegation in Washington. Althetics help provide that connection with free passes etc.

[SDSUFAN]

Jim:

Sorry, I guess you are entitled to one kick to my rear as I am probably no better than the guy in the elevator who did not read my entire sweatshirt.

No I have not read the petition, but why would this young student say what he did in the article that they included facts that were not accurate? The students down at SDSU at least the student leaders have studied this issue more than all the old farts that drink coffee and know everything. You know the ones who bitch about excessive property taxes but yet want no income tax, the ones who want no out of state hunters etc. These same people are also experts on how the Athletic Department should be run at SDSU. They most likely have signed Ms. Jost's petition.

Believe me. if she, (Ms. Jost) gets the floor at the open forum of the regents and starts to quote this stuff, she will not go unchallenged and thats what I am saying.

Fred Oien by now will be able to refute all those statements that are not accurate. Tired as it may sound, I think he knows what its all about.

[PCM]

I am hardly a Ralph but then I dont own Imperial Palace Casino on the strip either.

Apples and oranges. Although I know that Engelstad made contributions to UND unrelated to athletics, I'm not aware that he provided any money related to research.

The big bucks for research from from the federal government and industry. They tend to be more interested in the bottom-line results you produce than your BB team's won-loss record and which conference you play in.

[U2Bad1]

Personally, I think the fact that that the level of sports your school plays makes a huge difference in the amount of research dollars pumped in is ridiculous.

[SDSUFAN]

PCM:

Research is a partnership between university and industry and I hardly have to tell you that since you said you have been involved in research for 11 years. Athletics are the bridge between industry and education and that's when image starts to have some value. Having the best programs in athletics are a great investment in image making. The hard part is putting quanitities and percentages to athletics and their affect on research dollars. Its hard to see bacteria but scientists tell me that bacteria is all over the place. Because I don't see the bacteria, it does not mean bacteria does not exist.

I do not believe that athletics are just a operational expense that expire at the end of certain period of time. There are others besides Ralph who may have invested in the hockey program at UND over the years. I understand the facility used right after WW2 was very humble but apparently it was felt that additional investment would be good for UND.

So its about national championships and ESPN, and UND does have something that SDSU does not have in their D1 hockey program. Investment and image, yes thats what athletics can do for a Unversity.

[SDSUFAN]

PCM:

I forgot to mention Fed Research. Yes Daschle and Johnson both have made it possible to get more dollars from the Fed, but its also takes the faculty and staff to do their part and once you get your foot in the door, it stands to reason that repeat research dollars will follow with prudent use of the research dollars. So yes its hard to tie research dollars from the fed to Athletics.

Fed agencies do not have the budget dollars to be corporate sponsors except for the US Post Office and its stupid commerical" Stamps Stamps..... You dont see fed agencies advertizing. Having worked for the fed now 22 years, I know how it is. Johnson, Dascle and Thune always have a free ticket for any SDSU event. So thats how that part works in terms of athletics. Tell me Dorgan, Pomeroy and the other senator don't get free Fighting Sioux tickets when they are in town. AND DO THE the politicans kids and wife get fress passes? You bet they do. Even those aides with cell phones in their ear get a free pass.

The relationship between research and athletics-hmmm.

It would be a good topic for President Miller to discuss, but my guess she could find a link in their some where. She is a very smart lady. She seems to be the driver on this issue, but has been very quiet.

[PCM]

SDSUFAN,

I also have 7 years of industry related experience in research. I know a little bit about the subject and something about how decisions are made to fund research programs and projects.

As I said, athletic status isn't a non-factor in attracting reseach dollars, but I think anyone who uses it to promote a switch from DII to DIAA is selling a bit of snake oil.

[JBB]

I think PCM answers his own question and exposes the myopia that exists about Decision 1. Its not about athletics. Its about the Universities. As the Universities grow all programs including athletics grow. A rising tide lifts all boats as they like to say. thats why most of the people associated with the insitution in Grand Forks are so against this. The move to D1 for the athletic programs of their former peers is a symbol of the overall growth at these Universities and it makes them uncomfortable.

When we were in Brookings for the NDSU game we walked around the campus. It is beautifull. Some of the people in Brookings that I talked to dont really understand whats driving the move to D1. They forget its about the university first. They dont realize how far SDSU has come and what is happening there now. They can only see as far as the next game and they want to play Augi.

This issue cant be discussed without talking about the entire University. The Grad School Dean at SDSU knows this and coincidently is in favor of the move. I think thats a very important point to keep in mind.

[jimdahl]

thats why most of the people associated with the insitution in Grand Forks are so against this.  The move to D1 for the athletic programs of their former peers is a symbol of the overall growth at these Universities and it makes them uncomfortable.

I agree entirely. Just as you hang out here continuously putting down UND and its affiliates because it's successes make you uncomfortable, there are plenty of UND supporters who do the same.

Don't forget, though, that plenty of us are concerned with NDSU's division change because the next step is going to be a groundswell of support from that element for UND to move (a keeping up with the Jones's, if you will). Though I support a UND move (and an NDSU move), I think NDSU did it absolutely the wrong way and hope sincerely that UND learns from their mistakes.

This issue cant be discussed without talking about the entire University.  The Grad School Dean at SDSU knows this and coincidently is in favor of the move.  I think thats a very important point to keep in mind.

54% of NDSU faculty opposed the move (and that doesn't mean 46% favored it, there were a lot of "undecided"). As you said, it's very important to keep the impact on the entire University in mind. Another mistake NDSU made--ignoring the opinion of the faculty who clearly didn't believe that it would benefit academics/research.