[Wrong Side of the Red]

Noticed this interesting and unfortunately all to true article in USA Today. As a North Dakota native and UND engineering grad now working in the cities, I have to agree with most of what is said in this somewhat depressing article.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-0...ota-cover_x.htm

[ScottM]

It simply amazes me that NoDak cannot, or will not, compete with the likes of Iowa, SoDak, Nebraska, etc. Then again, most of the state politicos seem more intent on holding onto remnants of the past, e.g., Cold War air bases, agriculture, etc., than developing a more diversified and higher-margin economic base. I always thought, for example, if they closed GFAFB that it would be nice transit point for international shipping into/out of Canada, as well as for freight carriers like USP and FedEx on their Asian/Russian routes.

Can't argue with the disparity in salaries either. However, I am looking at a job in another midwestern state in football/boucyball country that would put me into a city of about 220000, but it would pay me about 45% *more* than MSP. If I went back to NoDak I could expect my comp to be shaved by at least that much.

[sioux fan in phoenix]

Quote

The Fargo metropolitan area had 177,064 residents in 2002, up 16% since 1990, according to the Census. Bismarck, the state capital, had a 15% population increase to 96,349 during the past 12 years.

Man, F-M has really grown since I was last there 14 years ago. It mentioned in the article that NDSU is the engine that drives Fargo, so why can't UND spur similar growth? You'd think their aerospace center, REA, etc. would spur a lot faster growth than it is currently achieving. UND is the premiere learning institution in the state & it doesn't appear they're luring businesses like they should be. Maybe I'm mistaken. PCM, Sicatoka or anyone else have a good theory on this?

Quote

Herman concurs: "If you're not a sportsman, life in North Dakota is: watch TV, play on the Internet, sleep. It's boring."

Now I know what PCM & sprig do on their days off Actually, that sounds a lot like me

Quote

The University of North Dakota has one of the nation's top-ranked college hockey teams.

Damn right & don't they dare forget it. Good/free advertising for our pride & joy.

You'd think that out-of-state employers would realize there's an educated, intelligent workforce waiting to be tapped in N.D. & that lower corporate taxes could..uh, forgot..they're outsourcing all our jobs to China, India & other 3rd World countries or flying in foreigners on high tech visas. That's the joy of having corporate America run our immigration policy. Never mind.

Good article, thx for sharing it.

[bisonguy]

They had the family that was interviewed in the story on one of the local news tonight (WDAY?). They said a lot was left out of the story to paint a bleak picture (i.e. the "frozen hair incident" was right after a swim meet with wet hair).

sioux fan in phoenix,

NDSU probably has the capability to drive growth better by having a lot more research that is in tune with the local economy. Partnerships with Ag and Tech companies seem to generate more $$$ locally than what a liberal arts school can produce. An aircraft manufacturer located closer would help the Aerospace program. I am suprised that UND doesn't generate more research $$$ with the Med School, though.

[nodakvindy]

Here's another side of the story. Ironic that it also ran today.

http://www.bismarcktribune.com/articles/20...state/sta01.txt

As for Grand Forks not matching Fargo and Bismarck in growth, the flood is the decisive factor. The fact that the community did not hemorrhage population is nothing short of amazing. Working in the disaster business, you see the emotional and mental scars on a community. Grand Forks is a textbook study on how to recover. Sure there are the occasional missteps and the typical local government quabbling, but the recovery of Grand Forks-East Grand Forks has been remarkable and the rebuilt infrastructure is a huge leg up for the future.

[Smoggy]

I love it in GF. It's actually the heat that annoys me. Of course now I'm in Cali. I took a teaching job that pays me 15,000 more than GF offers. And GF pays the highest starting teaching salary. What can I say; I need to pay off my loans. Then again, my job is a lot tougher out here.

I think eventually people will want to go back to cities that don't have rush hour traffic jams and get their kids away from schools that have way too many students. Average class size when I subbed in GF over Xmas was 15. Here it is 33. It's not education in big cities, it's crowd control with some herding involved. Even sports should be a big factor. We have a middle school of 2400 students, and one 15 player boys bball and one 15 player girls bball. It just seems odd that when these schools have more kids, they have less teams.

While there are some neat things to do in big cities, no matter where you go takes forever. So you just tend to not do them.

I think Bismarck, Fargo and GF should be able to grow and start attracting families, but the rural part will just get less populated.

I will not stay here in Cali.

[Goon]

sioux fan in phoenix, on Feb 24 2004, 06:23 PM, said:

UND is the premiere learning institution in the state & it doesn't appear they're luring businesses like they should be. Maybe I'm mistaken. PCM, Sicatoka or anyone else have a good theory on this?

It all boils down to dollars. There needs to be decent paying job to lure people back to Grand Forks and at the present time Grand Forks is not producing the types of jobs needed to bring the younger folks back to the Grand Cites. Its basically towns like Fargo are doing a better job developing the types of jobs needed to bring people to their town. Grand Forks is not.

[PCM]

bisonguy, on Feb 24 2004, 06:43 PM, said:

An aircraft manufacturer located closer would help the Aerospace program.

Actually, Cirrus has a manufacturing plant in Grand Forks.

Quote

I am suprised that UND doesn't generate more research $$$ with the Med School, though.

It's only been in recent years that the focus at the UND School of Medicine has shifted from being primarily teaching oriented. That's rapidly changing, however. This past year, the Med School surpassed the Energy & Environmental Research Center as the top research revenue producing entity on campus.

[PCM]

sioux fan in phoenix, on Feb 24 2004, 06:23 PM, said:

It mentioned in the article that NDSU is the engine that drives Fargo, so why can't UND spur similar gowth?

Location, location, location. Sitting at the intersection of two Interstate highways helps Fargo a great deal.

There is a recognition that the UND research community can and should be a major part of the economic development engine in that drives Grand Forks. However, saying that and doing it are two different things.

Quote

Herman concurs: "If you're not a sportsman, life in North Dakota is: watch TV, play on the Internet, sleep. It's boring."

I'd like to know how anyone can be bored when they're asleep.

Quote

Now I know what PCM & sprig do on their days off   Actually, that sounds a lot like me

When I'm not out chasing down moose on foot and wrestling them to the ground with my bare hands or sitting in my ice fishing shack, that's what I'm doing, too.

[sioux fan in phoenix]

PCM, on Feb 24 2004, 09:07 PM, said:

When I'm not out chasing down moose on foot and wrestling them to the ground with my bare hands or sitting in my ice fishing shack, that's what I'm doing, too.

You da man, Ed..I mean, Pat

[PCM]

Like everything in life, living in this part of the world is a tradeoff. I have no desire whatsoever to live or work in a large city.

I can walk to work in 10 minutes, ride my bike 5 minutes and drive in less than 5. As a husband and father, the thought of spending an hour or more each day stuck in traffic when I could be with my wife and kids has absolutely no appeal.

Crime? Pollution? Overcrowding? Bad schools? No thanks.

We live near campus in an older college-town neighborhood with big shade trees up and down our nice, quiet street. We're two blocks from beautiful University Park. We know and trust all of our neighbors. Our kids are getting great educations in a clean, safe environment. Fargo's not far away and neither is Winnipeg.

The cost of housing here is quite reasonable compared to other parts of the country. The cost of living isn't bad, either. Taxes are higher than I'd like them to be, but not as bad as other parts of the country.

As for journalists who come to North Dakota and focus on the cold weather, I have two words -- Well, DUH!

Here's a scoop for the media, and it's probably a real shocker: The further north you go, the colder the climate becomes! Put that in your freakin' stories!

The climate here isn't going to change anytime soon. Therefore, anyone who doesn't like cold weather shouldn't live here. The people who choose to live here can either A) tolerate the cold or B) prefer the cold. Personally, I love the ever-changing weather. I like storms and I like having a definite change in seasons. Given the choice, I'd always take -10 day over +90 day.

Also, the scenery isn't going to get any better. If you don't like wide-open spaces, don't come here. Personally, I like seeing the vast expanses of sky and experiencing sunrises and sunsets in all their grandeur. The prairie has a beauty all its own. It just takes longer to appreciate it.

And do know one of the coolest, most underrated parts of living in North Dakota? It's that when you live here, you can make a difference if you want to. One person has a much greater chance of changing things here than he or she ever would in New York or California.

I tell this story, not because I'm trying to impress anyone, but because it's true and a good example of what I'm talking about. Until they changed the Potato Bowl route, every year since we moved into our house, my family and I would walk a block down to University Avenue to watch the parade pass by.

I'd be standing along the street with hundreds of other people when Sen. Kent Conrad came riding along in a convertible. Without fail, he'd spot me in the crowd, wave and yell, "Hi, Pat!"

I've never given a dime to Conrad, but when I lived in Bismarck, I worked with him, the governor and other members of the Congressional delegation from time to time. People from larger states are always amazed at the access we have to our elected officials and the fact that they'll actually listen to us. That's another aspect of living in North Dakota that I'm sure most residents take for granted.

Last but not least, Dean Blais said it best one night on the Fighting Sioux Coaches show: Grand Forks is a hockey town. If you're a hockey guy, this is the place to be.

When you stop to think about it, it's hard to imagine that there's any other town in the country that eats, sleeps and breathes hockey on the same level per capita as Grand Forks. Wherever you go, there's always someone willing and able to discuss hockey, even in the offseason.

I've only lived here for 12 years, but I think that if I moved to another city, going through hockey withdrawal would probably kill me.

[Cratter]

PCM, on Feb 24 2004, 07:54 PM, said:

bisonguy, on Feb 24 2004, 06:43 PM, said:

An aircraft manufacturer located closer would help the Aerospace program.

Actually, Cirrus has a manufacturing plant in Grand Forks.

Quote

I am suprised that UND doesn't generate more research $$$ with the Med School, though.

It's only been in recent years that the focus at the UND School of Medicine has shifted from being primarily teaching oriented. That's rapidly changing, however. This past year, the Med School surpassed the Energy & Environmental Research Center as the top research revenue producing entity on campus.

The issue that needs to be addressed is that Cirrus wanted to move their "headquarters" to GF but had to eventually move it to Duluth, because of GF/ND's red tape.

The new neuroscience research center that is currently being built behind the Med School should help bring in future dollars to the community.

I wonder why UND has trouble developing their Tech Park?

[Smoggy]

Cratter, on Feb 24 2004, 08:05 PM, said:

PCM, on Feb 24 2004, 07:54 PM, said:

bisonguy, on Feb 24 2004, 06:43 PM, said:

An aircraft manufacturer located closer would help the Aerospace program.

Actually, Cirrus has a manufacturing plant in Grand Forks.

Quote

I am suprised that UND doesn't generate more research $$$ with the Med School, though.

It's only been in recent years that the focus at the UND School of Medicine has shifted from being primarily teaching oriented. That's rapidly changing, however. This past year, the Med School surpassed the Energy & Environmental Research Center as the top research revenue producing entity on campus.

The issue that needs to be addressed is that Cirrus wanted to move their "headquarters" to GF but had to eventually move it to Duluth, because of GF/ND's red tape.

The new neuroscience research center that is currently being built behind the Med School should help bring in future dollars to the community.

I wonder why UND has trouble developing their Tech Park?

Going with Cirrus, and the other wind thread, but I believe they also make the blades for the wind turbines.




PCM, I'm with you on the cold over the heat. SFiP will agree with me on this; there is nothing closer to he// than being in 115 - 120 degree weather. My dashboard starting melting with a windshield cover on! But, it's in the low 50s right now, and my apartment is at 63 degrees. I refuse to turn on heat in Cali.

[PCM]

cheeringsiouxfromsmoggycali, on Feb 24 2004, 11:08 PM, said:

Going with Cirrus, and the other wind thread, but I believe they also make the blades for the wind turbines.

There's a Danish company that makes the wind turbine blades. It's not the same as Cirrus.

[CoteauRinkRat]

I thought the article pointed out a lot of harsh realities to North Dakotans. We have a great educational system here, graduating people from high school and sending them to college. After college, we all know most of the youth are packing their bags and leaving town. I've talked to a lot of kids and they say their biggest problem in finding a job in the state is of course the pay, but also a lot of employers require experience. They head to the cities and get a job that pays more with no experience. I will never understand this about a lot of North Dakota employers I guess.

[The Sicatoka]

Sure, Bismarck and Fargo grew. Grand Forks "held serve" through the flood of 1997.

But the state's population still declined.

That tells me that all that's happening is that the small towns are going to collapse because all their people are moving into the three or four main cities in the state. When all the small towns are empty the growth of those cities stops.

Why isn't there more growth in ND when it seem to have all the factors working for it? To me there is a deep-seated almost hyper-conservative economic nature in this state. That nature allowed ND to show positive numbers during the national economic downturn; however, that same nature didn't allow ND to boom like the rest of the country during the big growth of the two decades before it.

Put another way, surrounding states seem like stock investors. North Dakota seems like a bond investor.

[ScottM]

I've always believed that NoDak's economic centers Fargo, GF, Bismarck and Minot, would grow as they tend to be magnets of economic and educational activity in their region. People move there for jobs of varying levels, and some economic development naturally follows as employers look for additional labor. Throw in NoDak's propensity to pay s**t wages relative to surrounding states, and you have the WalMarting of the labor force that stays behind.

For every person who moves to Fargo or Bismarck for a job, I'd bet 2-3 move out of state. All of the de minimis "tax incentives", bingo parlor and call center jobs in the world are not going to staunch that flow any time soon, especially when it comes to professional and technical people that NoDak needs to stay competitive at any level. Most people who do leave can do without the standard "QOL" and "COL" arguments if they can make 40-60% more elsewhere, or find similar QOL and COL in competing midwestern states that are willing to pay more for high-end talent.

Actually, Sicatoka, I would say that NoDak isn't a bond investor as most bonds have risk built into their pricing, so much as the person who keeps their money buried in a coffee can in the back yard, along with their head.

[tony]

I didn't think the article was that depressing.

Finally, the average income in North Dakota is going up faster than other places.

Thinking of Fargo as a "hip, college town" must have made some of you chuckle too. I've been sending emails to college buddies saying, "Hey, do a search on news.google.com on 'hip college town'."

I'm pretty confident about Fargo though. NDSU produces a lot of graduates in what I think of as "wealth-producing" fields and Fargo has just about reached that size where growth should become self-sustaining and these graduates can find interesting jobs in state. Other cities can do the same - growing businesses takes time and patience.

I've known a lot of friends who left the state: engineers, computer scientists, chemists, and math majors.. Not one left because of the weather. Hardly anybody could find rewarding work in North Dakota. Now that is starting to change. I'm tremendously optimistic about that.

One thing that has to change is North Dakota's aversion to risk of any kind. Everything worth doing involves risk. Why sneer at people who take risks then? "He'll be sorry." "She's gotten too big for her britches." "North Dakotans just aren't good enough to compete with the big boys." bull$%!#. London in Shakespeare's time was the same size as Fargo and yet it produced men who would be giants in any age. The main problem with North Dakota is that we teach our kids that they can't compete with the world at large "so stay at home where it's safe."

Being safe is a piss-poor goal, more suited for sheep than men.

Sidetracked myself. North Dakota is never going to keep all kids from moving away. That's a self-defeating tactic. What North Dakota has to do is attract people who have NEVER lived in the state. If you want a place to stop shrinking, you have to welcome and attract people who never lived there.

The Twin Cities is a great place to attract people from. It's a bloated, soulless collection of suburbs sprawled around a dead city center. Commuting there is awful - you'd be better doing a Grand Forks to Fargo commute than Maple Grove to St. Paul one - much better off. Despite wasting so much space, the place seems crowded and impossible to navigate. When I lived there, we put about 40000 miles a year on the cars.The suburbs were interchangeable and everything built in them looked great... now. It had all the problems of a big city and all the xenophobia of a small town. Greeeeeeat.

[The Sicatoka]

Holy smokes! We agree on something!

"Risk-averse" is an excellent economic characterization.

And you hint at an "I-29" commuting pattern. I know a couple or two who live in Hillsboro and one communtes to Fargo and the other to Grand Forks each day.

In the last census data I heard reported, Cass, Burleigh, Morton, Grand Forks, and the reservation counties held or added people; the rest lost. Oh, one other county added people: Traill (meaning non-GF or Cass County I-29 towns Hillsboro and Reynolds plus Mayville/Portland and Northwood). Could the Senator who promotes the Red River Valley corridor be onto something?

[nodakvindy]

I am on board with the I-29 corridor. I think the state should shut Mayville state down and sell the campus to the feds for a Homeland Security training facility. There are a lot of tie-ins that could be used - the School of Aviation at UND, the nanotechnology programs at NDSU, etc. The proximity to the border is also an advantage.

The National Fire Academy is on a former college campus in Emmitsburg, Maryland, a town similar in size to Mayville, so there is precadent.