127 replies to this topic

[darell1976]

2004 was the last time Alcorn St won more than 6 games...amazing that since the 2005 policy they have had only 2 winning seasons 05, and 06 both at 6-5. Since then 14-38. Yep lets be the next Alcorn State.

[82SiouxGuy]

DaveK, on 21 March 2012 - 08:14 PM, said:

Right.

Because everybody knows Alcorn State dropped their football program.

You anti-nickname people just LOOOOOOOOVE to be overly dramatic, don't you? It's really annoying.

If UND doesn't complete the transition, or if UND can't be a competitive program (like maybe because they can't host playoff games), then the Big Sky can and will kick UND out of the conference.  If UND gets kicked out of the Big Sky Conference the football team will be eliminated within 3 to 5 years.  Without a conference there aren't enough teams to play, there wouldn't be enough fans attending games and there wouldn't be enough money coming in to support the program.  It will be just like Nebraska Omaha.  It's too bad that you and the other nickname-at-all-cost people don't have the ability to understand the reality of the situation, or in the case of people like you, don't care enough about the program itself.  You would rather destroy the program than lose the nickname.

[DaveK]

fightingsioux4life, on 21 March 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:

I am so sick and tired of people like you using Alcorn State as a prime example of how NCAA sanctions will do us no harm.  Alcorn State is BAD in everything!  Being under sanctions has NO IMPACT WHATSOEVER on Alcorn State.  But a large majority of our teams are frequent visitors to NCAA postseason play and the sanctions will negatively impact our recruiting, scheduling and athletic department budgets.  If we keep the name and logo at all costs, the Big Sky will likely give us the boot and that will plunge us into a sea of financial red ink.  It is entirely possible that Kelley and Faison would soon determine that maintaining a football program under those circumstances is not feasible (financially and otherwise) and would then move to have the program dropped.

Not such a "small price to pay" anymore, is it?

If Alcorn State is so bad then perhaps you could tell me how they were able to recruit athletes the caliber of Steve McNair and Donald Driver? Anxiously awaiting you to go on spin cycle now.

[Benny Baker]

82SiouxGuy, on 21 March 2012 - 09:22 PM, said:

If UND doesn't complete the transition, or if UND can't be a competitive program (like maybe because they can't host playoff games), then the Big Sky can and will kick UND out of the conference.  If UND gets kicked out of the Big Sky Conference the football team will be eliminated within 3 to 5 years. Without a conference there aren't enough teams to play, there wouldn't be enough fans attending games and there wouldn't be enough money coming in to support the program.  It will be just like Nebraska Omaha.  It's too bad that you and the other nickname-at-all-cost people don't have the ability to understand the reality of the situation, or in the case of people like you, don't care enough about the program itself.  You would rather destroy the program than lose the nickname.

Not if Al Carlson makes a law that says that "the University of North Dakota fighting sioux football team must compete in the Football Championship Subdivision each calendar season.  And there is nothing that anybody can do to stop it."

[fightingsioux4life]

DaveK, on 21 March 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

If Alcorn State is so bad then perhaps you could tell me how they were able to recruit athletes the caliber of Steve McNair and Donald Driver? Anxiously awaiting you to go on spin cycle now.

I don't have to go on "Spin Cycle" to answer that.

The two athletes you mentioned are the exception to the rule.  Alcorn State had brief success with McNair at QB in the early 1990's (Sports Illustrated even put him on their cover with the headline "Hand Him the Heisman").  Alcorn St. has done nothing since and will likely do nothing ever again.  Even the most backwater schools will occasionally produce NFL players.  Jerry Rice played for Mississippi Valley St. and Walter Peyton played for Jackson St.  Both of those guys are NFL Hall of Famers.  And both of those colleges remain backwater institutions in the world of college athletics.  If that is the type of institution you think UND should emulate, then you have bigger problems than losing the name and logo.

[dakota]

DaveK, on 21 March 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

If Alcorn State is so bad then perhaps you could tell me how they were able to recruit athletes the caliber of Steve McNair and Donald Driver? Anxiously awaiting you to go on spin cycle now.

Weren't they already playing in the NFL by the time the sanctions were imposed? Who of that level has Alcorn State recruited since they were placed on sanctions?

[82SiouxGuy]

DaveK, on 21 March 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

If Alcorn State is so bad then perhaps you could tell me how they were able to recruit athletes the caliber of Steve McNair and Donald Driver? Anxiously awaiting you to go on spin cycle now.

Has Alcorn State been able to recruit athletes like that since the sanctions were put in place?  Has that conference been relevant in the past decade?  Sorry to hear that you have such low aspirations for UND football, oh wait, you don't really care about UND football.

[GoalieMask]

The only thing I know about Alcorn St is that Steve McNair went there.

[Fetch]

maybe

[yababy8]

fightingsioux4life, on 21 March 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:

I am so sick and tired of people like you using Alcorn State as a prime example of how NCAA sanctions will do us no harm.  Alcorn State is BAD in everything!  Being under sanctions has NO IMPACT WHATSOEVER on Alcorn State.  
Not such a "small price to pay" anymore, is it?

At least he is referencing actual facts, applicability is debatable but at least it is an instance. Now what people should be sick of is how the anti-fight for the name crowd continually references suppositions and hypothetical’s as justification for their position and on top of that they throw the hyperbolic labels like "name at all costs crowd" as if name supporters are insane murderers who believe that keeping the name is worth "all costs" ie maybe suggest that North Dakota declare war against the NCAA and nuke them?? Wouldn't that fall under the "all costs" rhetoric? right? Total propaganda crap is what it really is?
You all don't stop at hyperbolic rhetoric, ya gotta throw in the hypothetical’s too; ya know how you all just KNOW that we will get kicked out of the Big Sky, despite all of the bull crap that has happened since the Summit-Duple "UND asked me to spew rhetoric" days you are all still very SURE that the Big Sky is going to tank us. And the NCAA, well I guess you all just know them so goddam well that you are certain that they will never concede a thing, oh and Minnesota will NEVER EVER play us again, you all know this right.,... at least we know what happened at Alcorn State, and that is a huge step from where the anti-fight crowd is perched??

[82SiouxGuy]

yababy8, on 21 March 2012 - 10:54 PM, said:

At least he is referencing actual facts, applicability is debatable but at least it is an instance. Now what people should be sick of is how the anti-fight for the name crowd continually references suppositions and hypothetical’s as justification for their position and on top of that they throw the hyperbolic labels like "name at all costs crowd" as if name supporters are insane murderers who believe that keeping the name is worth "all costs" ie maybe suggest that North Dakota declare war against the NCAA and nuke them?? Wouldn't that fall under the "all costs" rhetoric? right? Total propaganda crap is what it really is?
You all don't stop at hyperbolic rhetoric, ya gotta throw in the hypothetical’s too; ya know how you all just KNOW that we will get kicked out of the Big Sky, despite all of the bull crap that has happened since the Summit-Duple "UND asked me to spew rhetoric" days you are all still very SURE that the Big Sky is going to tank us. And the NCAA, well I guess you all just know them so goddam well that you are certain that they will never concede a thing, oh and Minnesota will NEVER EVER play us again, you all know this right.,... at least we know what happened at Alcorn State, and that is a huge step from where the anti-fight crowd is perched??

You and several others on this site, like Dave and Fetch, have said that you would rather allow the UND athletic department be completely destroyed rather than lose the nickname.  That is the very definition of nickname-at-all-costs.

The Big Sky conference has the right to get rid of UND if they want, and the ability to do that.  None of us can predict whether it will happen or not.  But it is a real possibility and UND needs to take that into consideration.  It is a big risk to not consider it and would be irresponsible not to factor that risk into the equation.  It would be bad business not to consider that when making decisions.

We know that the NCAA won't change their position based on how they have handled this issue in the past and based on how they have handled a similar situation.  We have a 7 year history of how they are approaching the Native American policy, and the only time they moved at all was to create the appeal process.  Plus they have the law and the legal system on their side, although I know that you don't understand the legal system at all.  The similar situation is the Confederate flag policy in South Carolina and Mississippi.  Again they haven't moved off their position in over a decade in spite of the fact that the states have put their position into their state law.  Does that sound familiar at all?  The NCAA position is not hypothetical.

The Minnesota and Wisconsin issue is not hypothetical either.  The only way they have changed their policy in years is to adjust to fit with the NCAA policy.  It makes it easier for everyone if they have a uniform policy.  They are not going to change their policy back to allow them to play UND as long as UND is under sanctions.

My question has always been, what would make anyone think that the NCAA and the schools like Minnesota will change their policies?  There is nothing in history to give that impression.  As a matter of fact, history indicates that the policy will probably expand to more schools and that eventually the NCAA will expand their policy to include more cultural names.  It is a pipe dream for people to believe that the NCAA will back down.

[yababy8]

82SiouxGuy, on 21 March 2012 - 11:48 PM, said:

You and several others on this site, like Dave and Fetch, have said that you would rather allow the UND athletic department be completely destroyed rather than lose the nickname.  That is the very definition of nickname-at-all-costs.

I made that statement some time back in the context of satire toward hyperbolic thinking and jim's alias pulled it out of the archives to make the point that I support the dismantling of the athletic program to keep the name, but if you read it, like I said, I was being dramatic to make a point(if I remember I made reference to NDSU being in the Rose Bowl).  I didn't reply to the Jim alias comment because I got busy with things and forgot which one of these many name debate forums it was in...  You anti name people are so black and white with your thinking it is tough to witness.

Quote

None of us can predict whether it will happen or not.  But it is a real possibility and UND needs to take that into consideration.  It is a big risk to not consider it and would be irresponsible not to factor that risk into the equation.  It would be bad business not to consider that when making decisions.

I generally agree with what you say here except I would add that, given the Sioux Tribes push back to the NCAA policy, the probability of the Big Sky falling is greatly reduced.  Of course this is speculation just like the Big Sky is falling is speculation.  None of us know what will in the end happen here..

Quote

We know that the NCAA won't change their position

...ahhhhh no you don't.

Quote

although I know that you don't understand the legal system at all.  

....ahhhhhh no you don't

Quote

The similar situation is the Confederate flag policy in South Carolina and Mississippi.

If the NAACP was suing the NCAA because of the NCAAs position against the Confederate flag this would be a good analogy, or "precedent" but since the NAACP is in fact not suing the NCAA your analogy/precedent is woelfully nongermane.
  

Quote

My question has always been, what would make anyone think that the NCAA and the schools like Minnesota will change their policies?  

How about asking a different question,  Ask what we COULD do to effectuate a change in their policy?  ie diplomancy.  Crazy concept huh?  We all know we have not done a goddam thing in this regard.  Why not?  We all believe very strongly that keeping the name is right thing to do ethically, morally,  yada yada yada.. so why are we not going to these universities hand in hand with the Spirit Lake Sioux and working it.  Lord knows the anti-name crowd worked the hell out of it with about six activists, right?  Why not try??  Minnesota and Wisconsin owe us some respect!  They bailed on generations of some of the most notorious rivalries in all of college sports.  They should be saying that out of respect for our relationship, history and the passionate feelings of the Sioux people they are going to defer this debate and conflict to others and not take such a stand as to condem our institution in such a mannor.
You AND others in the anti-fight to save the name crowd believe the future is set in stone if we continue the fight by resisting the NCAA by making the name law.
I believe that the approach I mentioned has great promise, if tried.
How sure are you that I am wrong?

Quote

although I know that you don't understand the legal system at all.

....ahhhhhh no you don't

[82SiouxGuy]

yababy8, on 22 March 2012 - 12:58 AM, said:

I made that statement some time back in the context of satire toward hyperbolic thinking and jim's alias pulled it out of the archives to make the point that I support the dismantling of the athletic program to keep the name, but if you read it, like I said, I was being dramatic to make a point(if I remember I made reference to NDSU being in the Rose Bowl).  I didn't reply to the Jim alias comment because I got busy with things and forgot which one of these many name debate forums it was in...  You anti name people are so black and white with your thinking it is tough to witness.


I generally agree with what you say here except I would add that, given the Sioux Tribes push back to the NCAA policy, the probability of the Big Sky falling is greatly reduced.  Of course this is speculation just like the Big Sky is falling is speculation.  None of us know what will in the end happen here..


...ahhhhh no you don't.

....ahhhhhh no you don't



If the NAACP was suing the NCAA because of the NCAAs position against the Confederate flag this would be a good analogy, or "precedent" but since the NAACP is in fact not suing the NCAA your analogy/precedent is woelfully nongermane.
  
How about asking a different question,  Ask what we COULD do to effectuate a change in their policy?  ie diplomancy.  Crazy concept huh?  We all know we have not done a goddam thing in this regard.  Why not?  We all believe very strongly that keeping the name is right thing to do ethically, morally,  yada yada yada.. so why are we not going to these universities hand in hand with the Spirit Lake Sioux and working it.  Lord knows the anti-name crowd worked the hell out of it with about six activists, right?  Why not try??  Minnesota and Wisconsin owe us some respect!  They bailed on generations of some of the most notorious rivalries in all of college sports.  They should be saying that out of respect for our relationship, history and the passionate feelings of the Sioux people they are going to defer this debate and conflict to others and not take such a stand as to condem our institution in such a mannor.
You AND others in the anti-fight to save the name crowd believe the future is set in stone if we continue the fight by resisting the NCAA by making the name law.
I believe that the approach I mentioned has great promise, if tried.
How sure are you that I am wrong?


....ahhhhhh no you don't

The Spirit Lake lawsuit is very weak.  And even if they have a chance to win parts of it, it will take several years at a minimum to win.  A great deal of damage will happen to the UND athletic department during that time.  UND doesn't have the time it would take to work the angles you are talking about.  Especially since there isn't a high probability of success.

This issue isn't because of 6 activists.  The problem isn't just a UND issue.  This is an NCAA edict that affected 18 schools.  Plus a number of other schools changed their nicknames shortly before the NCAA got involved because of building pressure.  The NCAA isn't going to change their policy just for UND.  That would cause a great deal of anger and backlash from many of the other schools that have been affected.  It would create a bad precedent for the NCAA.  They aren't going to allow that.  Anyone that believes they can negotiate with the NCAA on this issue hasn't paid attention to the NCAA in years past.

[UNDBIZ]

yababy8, on 22 March 2012 - 12:58 AM, said:

...ahhhhh no you don't.

Yes, he does.

Quote

....ahhhhhh no you don't

Yes, he does.

Quote

If the NAACP was suing the NCAA because of the NCAAs position against the Confederate flag this would be a good analogy, or "precedent" but since the NAACP is in fact not suing the NCAA your analogy/precedent is woelfully nongermane.

I wasn't aware the NAACP had entered the Sioux nickname situation on the side of the save the nickname crowd.
  

Quote

How about asking a different question,  Ask what we COULD do to effectuate a change in their policy?  ie diplomancy.  Crazy concept huh?  We all know we have not done a goddam thing in this regard.  Why not?  We all believe very strongly that keeping the name is right thing to do ethically, morally,  yada yada yada.. so why are we not going to these universities hand in hand with the Spirit Lake Sioux and working it.  Lord knows the anti-name crowd worked the hell out of it with about six activists, right?  Why not try??  Minnesota and Wisconsin owe us some respect!  They bailed on generations of some of the most notorious rivalries in all of college sports.  They should be saying that out of respect for our relationship, history and the passionate feelings of the Sioux people they are going to defer this debate and conflict to others and not take such a stand as to condem our institution in such a mannor.
You AND others in the anti-fight to save the name crowd believe the future is set in stone if we continue the fight by resisting the NCAA by making the name law.
I believe that the approach I mentioned has great promise, if tried.
How sure are you that I am wrong?.

Apparently you're new here, as diplomacy has been the attempt for the last 7 years and the NCAA hasn't changed their policy to allow UND to keep the name.

Quote

....ahhhhhh no you don't

He really does....

[The Sicatoka]

82SiouxGuy, on 22 March 2012 - 07:23 AM, said:

This is an NCAA edict that affected 18 schools.  Plus a number of other schools changed their nicknames shortly before the NCAA got involved because of building pressure.  The NCAA isn't going to change their policy just for UND.  That would cause a great deal of anger and backlash from many of the other schools that have been affected.

What would the NCAA tell Indiana University of Pennsylvania, Louisiana - Monroe, Arkansas State, and the others that changed due to the NCAA moniker policy? "Oops, changed our minds again. Our bad. Sorry for the hell we put you through."

The moniker policy will only expand in the future. How dare I say this? Look at the words in the Settlement Agreement that I posted yesterday. The NCAA added specific language talking about what happens if no tribal approval exceptions are allowed under the policy in the future. They added that because that is their end game and end goal.

[The Sicatoka]

Fetch, on 21 March 2012 - 06:10 PM, said:

Who said the football team can't have home playoffs ?

I'm assuming you misspoke here because if not you really, truly have missed the entirety of the discussions and should go back and re-understand the situation.

But just in case you really were serious, the answer is: The NCAA.

Sanctions under the moniker include (not a complete list):
- no use of the word or logo at NCAA post-season events
- no hosting of NCAA playoff games <-- devastating to FB and WH (NDSU's FB title run was done hosting maximum home games)

[darell1976]

DaveK, on 21 March 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

If Alcorn State is so bad then perhaps you could tell me how they were able to recruit athletes the caliber of Steve McNair and Donald Driver? Anxiously awaiting you to go on spin cycle now.

Alcorn State football stars: Donald Driver--drafted in 1999; Steve McNair--drafted 1996. NCAA policy--2005!!

[jdub27]

yababy8, on 22 March 2012 - 12:58 AM, said:

How about asking a different question,  Ask what we COULD do to effectuate a change in their policy?  ie diplomancy.  Crazy concept huh?  We all know we have not done a goddam thing in this regard.  Why not?  We all believe very strongly that keeping the name is right thing to do ethically, morally,  yada yada yada..

If you truly believed this, you would be advocating for the team to wear their normal jersey's this weekend and the University make a very public statement by doing so.

Where do you really stand on this?  Is it the ethical and moral thing to do like you claim or it is the ethical and moral thing to do unless it causes actual harm, like forfeiting a game?  If you say the latter (which is what I'm guessing), then all of your rambling nonsense is just that.  You support what you say is the "right thing to do ethically, morally" until it comes time to deal with the consequences of doing it.  The majority of people around here understand that consequences are not worth keeping the name and logo whether it is the right thing to do or not.  Most people know when to cut their losses.  Others keep yelling that there will be no losses, but when they show up, just pretend they aren't a big deal and they just keep hoping that something might change despite no evidence indicating they will.  If you really believed it was about ethics and morals, then you would be calling for them to wear their regular season uniforms and accept the consequences.

Note - I am in no way, shape or form advocating that UND should wear their regular season uniforms and make a statement.  It would be unfair to the fans, University and more importantly, the student athletes.

[krangodance]

82SiouxGuy, on 21 March 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

Have you been sleeping or are you really stupid?  One of the sanctions is not being able to host NCAA playoff games.  The most obvious teams this can affect are the football team and the women's hockey team.  UND could have the Number 1 ranked team in FCS football going into the playoffs and they would have to play the games on the road.  UND will never host a playoff game in football as long as they are under sanctions.  Of course if they are under sanctions very long they may not have a football team.

Fetch obviously was not aware of this rule but do you really have to be so insulting?

I'm all for a good debate but it really bothers me when people have the audacity to personally insult total strangers over something so trivial.

[The Sicatoka]

DaveK, Fetch, Chewey, somebody called and left a message for you:

“If anyone’s focus is on a jersey or what we’re wearing, that better change right away. We’ve got one focus." -- Mario Lamoureux, captain, University of North Dakota mens hockey.

Seems Mario believes what is in the jersey is far more important than what is on it.

Jersey, no jersey. Nickname, no nickname. Mario wants to win. Get out of his way.