Fetch Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Not that I have ever heard & I agree & it will always be important to me & like so many other things that were important - once UND Admin. & SBOHE gave up there has never really been much of a chance for this wrong to be made right. Like I said before (many times) all the things that have happened had to happen & are still happening - The referral vote & Spirit Lake challenging in court are about what's left - I don't see the ncaa recognizing a State referral vote (same ol same ol the orgs. rules & their obviously going to ride it out to the end) But a Judge (1st in their court) then to a higher level - still has hope & could prove that our Sioux do approve - Especially if Spirit Lake Sioux name is adopted or at least asked if they would consider it ? Did this question definitely get asked ? I think the ncaa will eventually lose this battle - especially if the State of ND & UND & the community gets behind it - ONCE & FOR ALL ! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetch Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almostheavenin2011 Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Did you even graduate from UND? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackburn87 Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 I too believe that in the long run (and with the right legal challenges) the NCAA will lose this battle. Those in the best position to fight this at the next court battle are the Spirt Lake Sioux who have a valid claim- why are they being treated differently than similarly situated tribes in other jurisdictions? Why were they never a party to the NCAA/ND negotiations and yet their support of the Sioux name was vital to the settlement? The question is if North Dakota or the Spirit Lake Sioux will take it to the next level. (At some point, the Feds need to look into how the NCAA operates, but I digress.) I recognize that none of this may be in the nick of time (even if my long-run scenario is right)... but I hope the Spirit Lake Sioux will consider federal action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darell1976 Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 I too believe that in the long run (and with the right legal challenges) the NCAA will lose this battle. Those in the best position to fight this at the next court battle are the Spirt Lake Sioux who have a valid claim- why are they being treated differently than similarly situated tribes in other jurisdictions? Why were they never a party to the NCAA/ND negotiations and yet their support of the Sioux name was vital to the settlement? The question is if North Dakota or the Spirit Lake Sioux will take it to the next level. (At some point, the Feds need to look into how the NCAA operates, but I digress.) I recognize that none of this may be in the nick of time (even if my long-run scenario is right)... but I hope the Spirit Lake Sioux will consider federal action. I think because this is Fall of 2011 time ran out on the SL. If only the SL did this prior to 2010 or even when the SBoHE started moving up the retirement deadline. Where was Spirit Lake in 2007, or 2008? Also has anyone forgot, if SL gave us their blessing and the NCA accepted it, another tribal council can come in and disapprove the name and UND will have to retire it anyways. Unless the blessing is written in stone and has an expiration date of Dec. 31st, 5000 AD, then why not save the trouble and retire it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetch Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 "then why not save the trouble and retire it now". Because it's the right thing to do & must be done Spirit Lake felt they did the right things & have been ignored - so now is their time to fight to right the wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siouxman Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 I think because this is Fall of 2011 time ran out on the SL. If only the SL did this prior to 2010 or even when the SBoHE started moving up the retirement deadline. Where was Spirit Lake in 2007, or 2008? Also has anyone forgot, if SL gave us their blessing and the NCA accepted it, another tribal council can come in and disapprove the name and UND will have to retire it anyways. Unless the blessing is written in stone and has an expiration date of Dec. 31st, 5000 AD, then why not save the trouble and retire it now. It may be that you cannot sue until you have been wronged. So, SL could not sue until the deadline had passed and the NCAA sanctions/requirements kicked in. Then is the fact that you need someone associated with SL to lead the charge. I am guessing the tribal council has other issues to deal with. So now a group steps forward, willing to lead the legal charge, and gets the tribal council blessing to proceed. As Fetch said, stuff had to run its course before it was possible to take the appropriate legal action against the NCAA. In the UND lawsuit against the NCAA, they had identified UND as hostile and abusive. UND could claim injury at that point in a suit. UND wanted (and got) the NCAA to agree that it was not hostile and abusive. That may have been more important to UND than the nickname itself, but that is speculation on my part. Disclaimer: I am not an attorney, although I do work in the legal area. I also did not sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night or recently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krangodance Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Do you think the NCAA would meet with the tribes? Not here, and I can see them telling the SL and or SR no to a meet in Indy as they are busy. Obviously you're right. The NCAA doesn't care what the Native Americans have say (therin lies the biggest problem) and they're not going to give anybody an opportunity to discuss this issue with them any further. I think the percentage of people who believe this situation is going to change anything is very small but that doesn't mean this development is moot. If this story gets enough exposure it could be significant. Certainly those of us who watch this forum regulary are well aware that the majority of people who this NCAA policy is supposed to protect are actuallly against dropping the name. The general public, on the other hand, do not realize that Native Americans themselves are opposed to dropping the name. If a larger percentage of the population become privvy to the fact that the pleas from the Native Americans on the name and logo issue have been ignored in favor of the loud voices of those who are not Native Americans then that could open the door for some serious accusations against the NCAA that would influence how they move forward on issues like this in the future. I know that there's a widely held belief that the NCAA doesn't care what others think and will just do whatever they want regardless of public opinion. While I agree with that to a point I'm confident that even an organization as unwavering as the NCAA will not enjoy a reputation for trampling on the opinions of minorities simply to push a policy that has no basis in fact and they'll make a stronger effort to include the opinions of those most affected by their decisions. Let's face it. It's a bunch of rich guys in suits saying the the Sioux logo is "hostile and abusive" while Native Americans on tribal lands are saying "excuse me? why is our likeness hostile and abusive?". If that angle, which tells the true story, were to become more widely recognized over the angle that UND is somehow oppressing or ridiculing Native Americans then the NCAA would be hearing complaints from a lot more people than just the relative few who pay attention to UND. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darell1976 Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 It may be that you cannot sue until you have been wronged. So, SL could not sue until the deadline had passed and the NCAA sanctions/requirements kicked in. Then is the fact that you need someone associated with SL to lead the charge. I am guessing the tribal council has other issues to deal with. So now a group steps forward, willing to lead the legal charge, and gets the tribal council blessing to proceed. As Fetch said, stuff had to run its course before it was possible to take the appropriate legal action against the NCAA. In the UND lawsuit against the NCAA, they had identified UND as hostile and abusive. UND could claim injury at that point in a suit. UND wanted (and got) the NCAA to agree that it was not hostile and abusive. That may have been more important to UND than the nickname itself, but that is speculation on my part. Disclaimer: I am not an attorney, although I do work in the legal area. I also did not sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night or recently. However SL knew SR would not give their blessing and could have brought this suit up back in November or earlier when the SBoHE was moving the timeline up. Why doesn't the SL go after the SR. They are the ones who are almost as much blame as the NCAA. Its their tribal council that is preventing UND from having their name and its their council preventing their whole tribe a voice to be heard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Let's face it. It's a bunch of rich white guys in cheap suits and tweed jackets saying the the Sioux logo is "hostile and abusive" while helpless, unenlightened, (according to the white guys) Native Americans on tribal lands are saying "excuse me? why is our likeness hostile and abusive?". If that angle, which tells the true story, were to become more widely recognized over the angle that UND is somehow oppressing or ridiculing Native Americans then the NCAA would be hearing complaints from a lot more people than just the relative few who pay attention to UND. Freshened that up for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dakota fairways Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 ... The general public, on the other hand, do not realize that Native Americans the Sioux people themselves are opposed to dropping the name. If a larger percentage of the population become privvy to the fact that the pleas from the Native Americans Spirit Lake SIOUX on the name and logo issue have been ignored in favor of the loud voices of those who are not Native Americans Chippewa and bleeding heart liberal white guys then that could open the door ... fixed it for you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnboyND7 Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Wow- proof again that this name matters to a lot of the Sioux Nation and I'm grateful for their support and will to fight. A federal lawsuit will get a lot of attention and maybe some real change. Hard to argue the Spirit Lake Sioux are oppressed by the Sioux name and logo attached to North Dakota's flagship university. One tribe. One of very many. As I read somewhere else, that is like saying that Delaware speaks for the entire Eastern Seaboard. Does Delaware share the same view as most of the East Coast on some issues? Probably, but do they get to say that they are the American nation as a result? While I am sure some of UND's fans appreciate the support, if this drags out, this could just add more issues that honestly, UND probably doesn't need right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewey Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 One tribe. One of very many. As I read somewhere else, that is like saying that Delaware speaks for the entire Eastern Seaboard. Does Delaware share the same view as most of the East Coast on some issues? Probably, but do they get to say that they are the American nation as a result? While I am sure some of UND's fans appreciate the support, if this drags out, this could just add more issues that honestly, UND probably doesn't need right now. Last I saw, Sioux tribes and other tribes outside of the state of North Dakota did not give the nickname and logo to UND and they were not referenced in the surrender agreement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herd Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 Juridiction. The Feds have it; the Tribal Court doesn't. Nothing, but if they didn't boot "The U" (Miami Hurricanes) for their recently discovered misdeeds booting a team for a moniker would raise some eyebrows. Miami is DI. They are not asking permission from the NCAA to join DI. When you need the NCAA's permission, sign legal agreements, then back out on it repeatedly, why would a reaction by the ncaa surprise anyone. The moves by UND have been institutional if you consider the SBOHE and ND legisltature as an extension of the university, whereas the actions by Miami are not condoned by the university president and might be considered less institutionally driven than the situation at und. The ncaa president has spoken out in support of university leaders in Miami. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 UND is already an NCAA member. Kicking UND out of the NCAA over a moniker would be a most radical step. Remember, my original response was to this: Also what is holding the NCAA back in kicking us out. I am sure they hate this issue being brought up, and every attempt there is to save the name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 The moves by UND have been institutional if you consider the SBOHE and ND legisltature as an extension of the university, ... Well under that assumption set the ND Legislature and ND SBoHE are messing with NDSU status also, aren't they? The same governing bodies you mention control both UND and NDSU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hayduke Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 UND is already an NCAA member. Kicking UND out of the NCAA over a moniker would be a most radical step. Remember, my original response was to this: Indeed. We already have an afficilation with the NCAA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnboyND7 Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 Last I saw, Sioux tribes and other tribes outside of the state of North Dakota did not give the nickname and logo to UND and they were not referenced in the surrender agreement. Last I saw Standing Rock said screw you guys so.....where do we go from here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 Well under that assumption set the ND Legislature and ND SBoHE are messing with NDSU status also, aren't they? The same governing bodies you mention control both UND and NDSU. I presume that level of bureacracy may actually benefit UND if the NC$$ and BCS see that Kelley et al. are making good faith efforts to comply with the Settlement Surrender, in spite of the efforts of third-parties to "save" the name/logo. The only thing we haven't seen yet is Ralph rising from the grave threatening to blow up REA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darell1976 Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 UND is already an NCAA member. Kicking UND out of the NCAA over a moniker would be a most radical step. Remember, my original response was to this: So was telling a school with 80+ years of history on their nickname to change it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewey Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 Last I saw Standing Rock said screw you guys so.....where do we go from here? The population of SR has not indicated that at all. If they were allowed to vote, the results of Spirit Lake would be replicated. Your point that the nickname should be retired even if a non-namesake tribe from some distant state objects to it has been employed and failed vis-a-vis FSU. The only tribes that really are relevant in the debate are SR and SL. Any other Tribes in any others states can say whatever they want but such rhetoric would certainly be irrelevant to this debate. Why should the Chippewa like Leigh Jeanotte care? Probably jealousy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darell1976 Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 The population of SR has not indicated that at all. If they were allowed to vote, the results of Spirit Lake would be replicated. Your point that the nickname should be retired even if a non-namesake tribe from some distant state objects to it has been employed and failed vis-a-vis FSU. The only tribes that really are relevant in the debate are SR and SL. Any other Tribes in any others states can say whatever they want but such rhetoric would certainly be irrelevant to this debate. Why should the Chippewa like Leigh Jeanotte care? Probably jealousy? Why don't they protest at Central Michigan University. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sioux-cia Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 Why don't they protest at Central Michigan University. The Michigan Chippewa have banned the North Dakota Chippewa from their state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herd Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 So was telling a school with 80+ years of history on their nickname to change it. Yes, you are an ncaa member (a DII member). You won't get kicked out of the ncaa, but the ncaa must approve your membership before you are approved for DI. You don't get approved for country club membership by thumbing your nose at the board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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