Big Sky or Summit

[star2city]

Just a few more comments:

Instead of an MVFC with two divisions, doesn't two auto bid conferences make more sense? Two autobids rather than one. Going 5-0 in the conference and 2-4 outside will still mean playoffs. Going 0-3 early wouldn't lock a school out, and the last half of the season could still be meaningful.

The MVFC and Summit could still have an interlocking scheduling agreement, so the schedule wouldn't change that much.

NDSU wouldn't have to contend with UNI and SIU for the autobid. Instead, they have to contend with two other schools that have dominated them recently, SDSU and UND.

Nebraska-Omaha is more than likely moving to DI into the Summit (pending an invite). IF UNO is invited, even SUU potentially leaving still would likely mandate Summit football.

If the Summit League adds football, their NCAA conference status changes from IAAA to FCS. If I'm not mistaken, more money would flow to the Summit, so the other non-football schools would want the status change.

Montana supposedly has blackballed SUU in the past from Big Sky membership. If say Sac State is taken by the WAC, would the Big Sky take in Cal Poly and UC-Davis as football only? Would SUU be on the the outside of the Big Sky, but still have a football home in the Summit? All the football teams in the West would be taken care of.

But this is the kicker for NDSU fans: a UND-NDSU series not only would return, but would be conference mandated.

[jimdahl]

As stated a number of times, SUU probably has to leave for Summit football not to be required by conference bylaws.

Sorry for making you repeat, I've been absurdly busy this year and haven't really been following the discussion, just the headline developments. I appreciate your insight!

Edit -- I now see your reference to you supplying this info 18 mos ago. I have to change my excuse from being busy this year to a lousy memory

[GeauxSioux]

I don't think a Summit football conference would be possible in the near term future (10 years) or ever. I understand why they are talking about it, the sustainability of the conference for the long term, but it has a very low probability.

[star2city]

I don't think a Summit football conference would be possible in the near term future (10 years) or ever. I understand why they are talking about it, the sustainability of the conference for the long term, but it has a very low probability.

What's amazing is that neither the Herald or the Forum addressed Summit bylaws. Unless the Summit bylaws specifically exclude football, with six teams Summit football could be forced to happen. One can rest assured that Douple wants football to happen, and likely the non-football schools want it too. NDSU and SDSU would each have to pay the MVFC $500,000 if they were required to play in the Summit. Maybe they could negotiate down that exit fee if an interlocking schedule was set up between the Summit and MVFC. .

[star2city]

Sorry for making you repeat, I've been absurdly busy this year and haven't really been following the discussion, just the headline developments. I appreciate your insight!

Edit -- I now see your reference to you supplying this info 18 mos ago. I have to change my excuse from being busy this year to a lousy memory

It's hard to remember all the permutations of conference issues. Delaying UND's entry into the Summit helped delay Summit football talk: the Sioux nickname was a convenient excuse. Again, if the bylaws require play once autobid numbers are reached, Summit football could very well occur. The other issue is that if Illinois State somehow obtains a MAC bid to play FBS football there, the Summit may be in a position to take over the MVFC anyway, just like the CAA took over football sponsorship from the Atlantic 10.

[GeauxSioux]

What's amazing is that neither the Herald or the Forum addressed Summit bylaws. Unless the Summit bylaws specifically exclude football, with six teams Summit football could be forced to happen. One can rest assured that Douple wants football to happen, and likely the non-football schools want it too. NDSU and SDSU would each have to pay the MVFC $500,000 if they were required to play in the Summit. Maybe they could negotiate down that exit fee if an interlocking schedule was set up between the Summit and MVFC. .

I doubt that either NDSU or SDSU has any interest in Summit football. If that were pushed, I could just as easily see them granted full membership in the Valley, as the Valley would be in self preservation mode as well.

[star2city]

I doubt that either NDSU or SDSU has any interest in Summit football. If that were pushed, I could just as easily see them granted full membership in the Valley, as the Valley would be in self preservation mode as well.

The Valley is about basketball. No way would Creighton, Drake, Bradley, Evansville, Wichita State vote in those two when other options like St Louis might be available.

NDSU and SDSU might not have an interest in Summit football, but there choice might be take a hike or accept it. If the bylaws require the league to sponsor once an autobid is possible, NDSU and SDSU don't have the votes to stop it.

In the Southland Conference, UT-San Antonio is being kicked out because they won't play football there.

[GeauxSioux]

The Valley is about basketball. No way would Creighton, Drake, Bradley, Evansville, Wichita State vote in those two when other options like St Louis might be available.

NDSU and SDSU might not have an interest in Summit football, but there choice might be take a hike or accept it. If the bylaws require the league to sponsor once an autobid is possible, NDSU and SDSU don't have the votes to stop it.

In the Southland Conference, UT-San Antonio is being kicked out because they won't play football there.

All good points. Still, I would be none too happy if I were the XDSU's, if this were to transpire.

[star2city]

All good points. Still, I would be none too happy if I were the XDSU's, if this were to transpire.

Funny, they've been bragging up the Summit. Now, they are saying it's a crappy league and don't want to build it up.

Chapman worked behind the scenes to delay UND's entrance into the Summit. Their own actions come back to haunt them.

[Bison Dan]

Funny, they've been bragging up the Summit. Now, they are saying it's a crappy league and don't want to build it up.

Chapman worked behind the scenes to delay UND's entrance into the Summit. Their own actions come back to haunt them.

Again you're in fantasy land. If it's not a requirement I doubt the other members would vote for it just in case it would someday become one. I highly doubt that the "by-laws" talk about fb. If UND comes in with the a agenda of pushing fb for the Summit do you really think that the non fb members of the Summit and the XDSU's would vote for und? This could hurt your chances. You have always said it was a crappy league and now you want in???

[sultan]

It has to be a tough day for Bison Dan. His greatest fears are about to be realized. UND will be in the same league as NDSU. And then UND will continue to dominate NDSU just like they did before NDSU ran off. Ouch.

[GeauxSioux]

If it's not a requirement I doubt the other members would vote for it just in case it would someday become one. I highly doubt that the "by-laws" talk about fb.

The bylaws probably don't mention football by name. It is likely that there is a requirement that when six members of a conference (Summit) play a sport, they must play that sport in conference.

If UND comes in with the a agenda of pushing fb for the Summit

UND is not pushing this agenda. UND is not in and it is being discussed. It probably caught Faison off-guard.

do you really think that the non fb members of the Summit and the XDSU's would vote for und? This could hurt your chances.

You are right if current members feel threatened they may vote no, but what political price would the NDSU president pay in the state if he voted no?

You have always said it was a crappy league and now you want in???

I would still rather UND be in the Big Sky. I think it closer to the concentrations of the fan base, that is outside of ND and MN.

Edited June 23, 2010 by GeauxSioux

[BIGSIOUX]

I would still rather UND be in the Big Sky. I think it closer to the concentrations of the fan base, that is outside of ND and MN.

This has me scratching me head.

[GeauxSioux]

This has me scratching me head.

Outside of ND and MN, some of the largest fan bases are in Phoenix, Denver and Seattle. More UND alumni move west than move east.

Univ of Northern AZ - Phoenix

Univ of Northern Colo - Near Denver.

Portland State - Not too far from Seattle.

Eastern Washington - Seattle/Spokane

[Bison Dan]

Outside of ND and MN, some of the largest fan bases are in Phoenix, Denver and Seattle. More UND alumni move west than move east.

Univ of Northern AZ - Phoenix

Univ of Northern Colo - Near Denver.

Portland State - Not too far from Seattle.

Eastern Washington - Seattle/Spokane

Your best fan base would be the Summit. Unless you don't travel well.

[GeauxSioux]

Your best fan base would be the Summit. Unless you don't travel well.

Sioux fans don't get out much.

[JackJD]

I've been following this thread and, in particular, star's speculation about Summit League Bylaws. It's interesting how star starts his analysis with "if the bylaws require...," follows the speculation with several conclusions that seem to take the speculation as fact, and then take some shots at NDSU.

GeauxSioux noted that the comments about the bylaws are speculation at this point. I think he's right. Has anyone thought to ask for a copy of the bylaws or other League regulations that address these issues? I'm going to do that because I'm convinced from sources I've talked to, that there's no way NDSU and SDSU can be forced to leave the MVFC -- the Bison and Jacks may elect to do so (I doubt that will happen) but they can't be forced. But, my information may be based on guesswork, too. So, let's see if there are some bylaws, regulations or agreements among the League members that are on point and then the speculation can end.

If I can obtain the information, I'll post it.

I am certain SDSU is happy to be in the MVFC as is NDSU. I don't see either school joining a Summit football league -- unless, of course, they're bound by some bylaw, regulation or agreement.

[star2city]

I've been following this thread and, in particular, star's speculation about Summit League Bylaws. It's interesting how star starts his analysis with "if the bylaws require...," follows the speculation with several conclusions that seem to take the speculation as fact, and then take some shots at NDSU.

What is a fact is that other conference bylaws would force NDSU and SDSU to chose between the MVFC and Summit. Your posting here concedes that you are concerned that I am indeed correct. Thanks for that affirmation of my postings. As far as speculation, isn't that what message boards are for?

As far as your concern that I took a "shot" at NDSU, certainly you must be a very sensitive type to hanging around message boards. Please, defend Chapman and his behaviour here: you have the floor. I can surely understand that you don't want SDSU to be forced from the MVFC, so your biases are understandable. But have you ever viewed bison boards, which are practically a non-stop attack boards on UND? If you have, and haven't defended UND, wouldn't that make your comments hypocritical? Surely someone trained as a "JD" would be capable of neutrality - even in an UXD vs XDSU issue - even with all it's allegiances? Perhaps not.

GeauxSioux noted that the comments about the bylaws are speculation at this point. I think he's right. Has anyone thought to ask for a copy of the bylaws or other League regulations that address these issues? I'm going to do that because I'm convinced from sources I've talked to, that there's no way NDSU and SDSU can be forced to leave the MVFC -- the Bison and Jacks may elect to do so (I doubt that will happen) but they can't be forced. But, my information may be based on guesswork, too. So, let's see if there are some bylaws, regulations or agreements among the League members that are on point and then the speculation can end.

If I can obtain the information, I'll post it.

I am certain SDSU is happy to be in the MVFC as is NDSU. I don't see either school joining a Summit football league -- unless, of course, they're bound by some bylaw, regulation or agreement.

Please do post the bylaws. Again, your concern shows that my speculation has substance.

The bylaws aren't available online from my searches. If the Summit was only going to absorb Great West football, why the talk about an autobid? An autobid still wouldn't happen with five teams. Summit football with an autobid implies that Summit teams that play in the MVFC would move to the Summit.

[homer]

I've been following this thread and, in particular, star's speculation about Summit League Bylaws. It's interesting how star starts his analysis with "if the bylaws require...," follows the speculation with several conclusions that seem to take the speculation as fact, and then take some shots at NDSU.

GeauxSioux noted that the comments about the bylaws are speculation at this point. I think he's right. Has anyone thought to ask for a copy of the bylaws or other League regulations that address these issues? I'm going to do that because I'm convinced from sources I've talked to, that there's no way NDSU and SDSU can be forced to leave the MVFC -- the Bison and Jacks may elect to do so (I doubt that will happen) but they can't be forced. But, my information may be based on guesswork, too. So, let's see if there are some bylaws, regulations or agreements among the League members that are on point and then the speculation can end.

If I can obtain the information, I'll post it.

I am certain SDSU is happy to be in the MVFC as is NDSU. I don't see either school joining a Summit football league -- unless, of course, they're bound by some bylaw, regulation or agreement.

Everyone on this board knows that nothing for sure is known about the bylaws but its something to discuss regarding this topic. Well, everyone but you, the message board police.

[Gothmog]

One question. Why would the Summit League need to do a Football feasibility study if its bylaws would require sponsorship of football anyway?

[82SiouxGuy]

One question. Why would the Summit League need to do a Football feasibility study if its bylaws would require sponsorship of football anyway?

If Southern Utah goes to the Big Sky and UND replaces them it would leave the conference with 5 football playing schools. They might want to do a feasibility study to see if they want to attract more football playing schools if they decide to go to 12 total. Or if their bylaws would require they become a football conference but they don't want to risk losing the XDSUs, or they aren't sure that the football conference would be financially viable, then doing a feasibility study now would give them time to change the bylaws so that they didn't have to become a football conference.

[Gothmog]

If Southern Utah goes to the Big Sky and UND replaces them it would leave the conference with 5 football playing schools. They might want to do a feasibility study to see if they want to attract more football playing schools if they decide to go to 12 total. Or if their bylaws would require they become a football conference but they don't want to risk losing the XDSUs, or they aren't sure that the football conference would be financially viable, then doing a feasibility study now would give them time to change the bylaws so that they didn't have to become a football conference.

My point exactly. Summit football will not happen by automatic operation of the conference's bylaws. Calmer heads would prevail and the best interests of all members would be considered. Personally, I can't imagine the non-football membership forcing the MVFC schools to leave their current confernce (and possibly incur a large penalty) over their strong objections. But, hey, I'm just speculating.

[JackJD]

Your posting here concedes that you are concerned that I am indeed correct. Thanks for that affirmation of my postings. As far as speculation, isn't that what message boards are for?

Interesting take on my post but you give me too much credit. I'm an infrequent viewer of the UND message board (look to the left: I've made 39 posts on this message board since joining in December, 2007) and you should probably know that I am not opposed to UND joining the Summit League. I agree much speculation occurs on message boards.

If you have, and haven't defended UND,...

I'm not very interested in disputes between UND and NDSU. Sorry. Not my fight. I support SDSU.

Please do post the bylaws. Again, your concern shows that my speculation has substance.

LOL. Again, you misinterpret my post and give me too much credit (think you can convince my wife and kids about giving me a little more credit from time to time? ). Sheesh, late last night I was wasting a little time on the internet, read the news about the Summit League moving forward with consideration of UND's application for admission and thought I'd take a look at the UND message board on that subject. I read your speculation about NDSU and SDSU football -- points I had not heard before and had a hard time believing.

I do not know if the bylaws are public information. If they are, it seems a link could be posted so people can read them and reach their conclusions. I sent out an e-mail to a source, inquiring about whether the bylaws are available.

[star2city]

If Southern Utah goes to the Big Sky and UND replaces them it would leave the conference with 5 football playing schools. They might want to do a feasibility study to see if they want to attract more football playing schools if they decide to go to 12 total. Or if their bylaws would require they become a football conference but they don't want to risk losing the XDSUs, or they aren't sure that the football conference would be financially viable, then doing a feasibility study now would give them time to change the bylaws so that they didn't have to become a football conference.

In part, the Summit and Douple probably want UND to quit flirting with the Big Sky. The study might not even be done by the time UND is accepted, and thereafter SUU might be gone, so the whole study becomes a mute point. But if and ever UNO is added, the same situation would arise. The markets the Summit most needs schools are Omaha and St. Louis to connect the conference's geography. Lindenwood in St Louis has DI aspirations, too, but can't move up for a number of years. The Summit football issue has to be addressed.

But if SUU is still in the league and Summit Football happens, and a Summit-MVFC scheduling agreement occurs, wouldn't everybody be relatively happy? Two autobids instead of one. SDSU, NDSU, and WIU no longer have to go through SIU and UNI for an autobid and would still be able to play MVFC teams. The MVFC, down to six, would welcome a scheduling agreement with the Summit just so MVFC teams wouldn't have to travel South and East to fill a schedule. With a scheduling agreement, the MVFC also likely waives the exit fees.

Summit MVFC

UND UNI

NDSU Ill St

SDSU SIU

USD Ind St

WIU Mo St

SUU YSU

Trade SUU for UNO later.

Five games within the conference and three or four against the other conference.

Two autobids vs one.

[Hammersmith]

Sorry star, but it's more likely this is about the upcoming demise of the Great West Conference than any elusive Summit bylaws(that probably don't exist). Once you guys get a Summit invite, there will be nothing holding the football and all-sports halves of the GWC together. Personally, I don't see the all-sports part of the GWC surviving the loss of the UxDs, but even if it does, it won't be interested in running the football side of the conference anymore. At that point, it makes sense to return the administration of the conference back to the Summit where it all started(if you recall, the Mid-Con ran the GWFC for most of its run). While the Summit presidents will investigate bringing football completely in-house, I believe they will end up returning to the old status quo and run the GWFC out of the Summit offices. Maybe they will keep the GWFC name(especially of the GWC folds), maybe they will call it the Summit Football Conference, or maybe they will come up with some other name, but it will be a separate conference. That keeps everyone happy, or at least close to it. SUU, UND & USD keep their football home even if the GWC goes under, NDSU, SDSU & WIU aren't forced to do something they don't want to(or if not forced, at least they won't feel pressured), and the non-football schools won't feel like the conference is shifting away from them(why the non-football MVC schools continue to want the MVFC to be administratively separate from the MVC).

A rule you can rely on 99.9% of the time is that university presidents will do the minimum possible to achieve their needs. This is not the 0.1% of the time. You can look on it as an extension of Occam's Razor. Which is more likely: star's elaborate scenario of schools switching conferences, scheduling agreements between conferences, and moving autobids, or my scenario of everything staying the same except the location of the conference office? If you go with star, I think you need some time away from the internet and star's Hypnotoad*.

*Hypnotoad courtesy of Futurama - the show that wouldn't die. New episodes starting tonight on Comedy Central, 8pm EST/9pm CST.